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"Software Centre"
« on: January 23, 2019, 03:03:22 AM »
 

Derek_

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Hiya,

I understand this has been raised here, but the absence of a more complete Software Centre is a significant shortcoming. I like the idea of Lite Software - rock solid offerings presumably tested and tweaked, PPAs added etc. Its good. But for inexperienced users the list is just SO small, and they probably have no idea where else to go. There is so much good stuff in the Ubuntu repositories many users will not be able to find.

Would it be possible to perhaps have something like a separate section of Lite Software that shows everything that's in the Ubuntu repositories, but with a notice that the software therein is not necessarily tested with Lite, and an individuals mileage may vary?

Sorry if this has been responded to many times. As mentioned in another post, i didn't find a post or statement about the Software Centre except in response to a couple of other people making requests.
 


Re: "Software Centre"
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2019, 04:18:00 AM »
 

Jerry

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Lite Software's mission is clear and simple, it provides people with familiar software coming from other proprietary OS's and software that covers most genres, whilst Install/Remove Software (Synaptic) takes care of all the rest, including managing PPA's etc.
 

Re: "Software Centre"
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2019, 12:26:34 PM »
 

torreydale

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@Jerry ,


It might be clearer to say, "it provides people coming from other proprietary OS's with familiar software that covers most genres, whilst Install/Remove Software (Synaptic Package Manager) takes care of all the rest, including managing PPA's etc."
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Re: "Software Centre"
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2019, 10:23:50 PM »
 

Derek_

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Unfortunately, it's not that simple to use Synaptic, compared to the various 'software centres' around, its the antithesis of simple.

I don't understand the reasons for the lack of a simple software centre akin to something like Mint's or Deepin's. Having one doesn't in any way diminish the mission. I can only assume its not an easy thing to accomplish/maintain and there aren't the resources for it, which is a perfectly valid reason.
 

Re: "Software Centre"
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2019, 11:06:16 PM »
 

torreydale

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Lite Software is not supposed to be an all inclusive software center.
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Re: "Software Centre"
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2019, 12:14:49 PM »
 

smhardesty

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Unfortunately, it's not that simple to use Synaptic, compared to the various 'software centres' around, its the antithesis of simple.

I don't understand the reasons for the lack of a simple software centre akin to something like Mint's or Deepin's. Having one doesn't in any way diminish the mission. I can only assume its not an easy thing to accomplish/maintain and there aren't the resources for it, which is a perfectly valid reason.


First, if you find Synaptic to be too difficult to learn to use, you might consider not attempting to install any software that isn't either installed by default with the version of Lite you have chosen, or is not available in the Lite Software list. Synaptic is one of the most user friendly and intuitive means of installing new software, removing software, updating installed packages, fixing broken packages, and doing upgrades. If you find Synaptic too difficult to learn and use, you might very well be overstepping your current limits.

As has been stated by Jerry and others on this forum, Lite's mission is NOT to provide every user with every piece of software available in the free market. It's mission and intent is to provide a very simple to use and easy to understand alternative to the Windows operating system. Once a person has become familiar with using Lite, hopefully they will continue to use it and learn to install the software they would prefer, either via Synaptic, GDebi Package Installer, Tarballs, or other means. The one thing each of those people needs to remember is that Jerry and the guys offer no support for such attempts. If they "bork" their install, it's a lesson learned. That''s not entirely a bad thing. Over the years I have learned many lessons from such failed attempts.

I guess in short what I'm saying here is that just maybe you need to consider learning more about Linux and how to install software. I seem to recall in another of your threads you made a comment about doing things from the command line. If you're familiar with command line use, why the need for a completely basic, easy to use, software installer? Do the things you need from the command line. If your request is actually for the recipients of the PCs your are giving away, let those recipients learn to use a basic Linux install before you offer them a way to install every piece of software Linux has to offer. I would even go so far as to remove the Menu listing for the Lite Software list. Users just new to Linux probably shouldn't be given a means to install, uninstall, change, tweak, fiddle, and fart with their new PC.

Just my 2 cents worth.
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Re: "Software Centre"
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2019, 06:00:50 AM »
 

Derek_

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Before i reply, i'd like to state that i mis-spoke earlier when i said that having a software centre "doesn't diminish the mission". That's not for me to say. It should have been a question: "how does it diminish the mission?". So i apologise for that.

First, if you find Synaptic to be too difficult to learn to use, you might consider not attempting to install any software that isn't either installed by default with the version of Lite you have chosen, or is not available in the Lite Software list. Synaptic is one of the most user friendly and intuitive means of installing new software, removing software, updating installed packages, fixing broken packages, and doing upgrades. If you find Synaptic too difficult to learn and use, you might very well be overstepping your current limits.

As has been stated by Jerry and others on this forum, Lite's mission is NOT to provide every user with every piece of software available in the free market. It's mission and intent is to provide a very simple to use and easy to understand alternative to the Windows operating system. Once a person has become familiar with using Lite, hopefully they will continue to use it and learn to install the software they would prefer, either via Synaptic, GDebi Package Installer, Tarballs, or other means. The one thing each of those people needs to remember is that Jerry and the guys offer no support for such attempts. If they "bork" their install, it's a lesson learned. That''s not entirely a bad thing. Over the years I have learned many lessons from such failed attempts.

I can use Synaptic. But new users, trying to come across from Windows (which i thought was part of the appeal) do struggle with it. It's heavy on initial information and daunting. I chose Lite for charity because i thought it would make it easier for people with little IT experience, or whose only experience would be WinMac.

I guess in short what I'm saying here is that just maybe you need to consider learning more about Linux and how to install software. I seem to recall in another of your threads you made a comment about doing things from the command line. If you're familiar with command line use, why the need for a completely basic, easy to use, software installer? Do the things you need from the command line. If your request is actually for the recipients of the PCs your are giving away, let those recipients learn to use a basic Linux install before you offer them a way to install every piece of software Linux has to offer. I would even go so far as to remove the Menu listing for the Lite Software list. Users just new to Linux probably shouldn't be given a means to install, uninstall, change, tweak, fiddle, and fart with their new PC.

Just my 2 cents worth.

The recipients of these devices vary. Some may be excited about using and learning Linux. Many (most, just like everyone else) just wants to get stuff done. I don't deal directly with these people, i supply these machines for their case-workers to give them. I'm lucky the lady who runs the show was vaguely familiar with Linux and was receptive. Most charities i approached weren't interested: it's not WinMac :(

What i may be erroneously thinking is that people will get Linux Lite and go "i can only install these 20 programs?". Wipe it, and put Windows on it. This isn't my problem, but i love Linux and want people to know about it and use it (oh, and usually the hardware really can't copy with Windows 10). Its also possible that the limited choice that covers most app types is ok; that a more comprehensive range will just confuse people. But people are used to mobile phones with a billion apps, and WinMac with a billion apps so i don't know.

What drew me to LL was the online FAQ/help that covered some common errors and stuff, and i remember a useful error message that actually told the person how to fix it (for memory by linking to the FAQ). TBH i didn't even notice the sparsity of the Lite Software selection until i had trouble installing something via the Terminal and thought i'd see if it was in the 'software centre'.

I've only recently switched to Linux Lite for these peeps and i'm yet to get feedback. Depending on what they say, it may be the case that Linux Lite just isn't quite what i was looking for and i should continue to trial alternatives. I'll wait and see what happens with the recent batch before i do more.
Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 06:02:52 AM by Derek_
 

Re: "Software Centre"
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2019, 09:55:15 AM »
 

bitsnpcs

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Hello Derek_,
when I need software for a task I use Google and type,
keyword for the task ubuntu 16.04
This search would give me results showing websites and blogs comparing softwares, I got to see various gui of the different choices, and was able to pick one pretty much straight away.
Once I knew the software name I was then able to use Synaptic by typing in the software name and searching for the software.
All of the softwares I have chosen this way have worked on LL. Once the software wasn't in Synaptic so I had to use a .deb file and learn how to do this.
Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 09:57:05 AM by bitsnpcs
 

Re: "Software Centre"
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2019, 11:04:18 AM »
 

trinidad

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@Derek_  wrote: But people are used to mobile phones with a billion apps, and WinMac with a billion apps so i don't know.

You're right. You don't know. You're comparing apples and oranges. Apps as you refer to them here are not system files. Most of those billions are java and web language abstractions. Applications in synaptic and in so-called software centers include binaries and binary dependencies that integrate into your system.

Also I-phones, Android phones, Apple Macs, and Windows 10 are all built on much older system kernels and binaries than Ubuntu. Linux software uses abstraction layers of java in applications like LibreOffice but most of those billions of apps you refer to are a patchwork quilt of useless code (often 32bit) too OLD to run efficiently and securely on newer Linux systems. When it comes to "apps" as you refer to them "new" in the Windows/Mac/Android world is very often not new.  Maybe somebody built it just yesterday, and wow it still works on Windows 10, but it's code base is too old for Ubuntu.

Also anyone who thinks synaptic package manager is too complex shouldn't go near the CLI of a modern Linux system.

Also the main problem with "software centers" the way you mean them is that they are resource hogs in GUI mode. I used to hate KDE's, and I wish it was never added into Ubuntu. A lot of applications in them are not included in the initial install of whatever base system they're on because they a often LESS efficient alternatives. The same can be said of Debian's synaptic as well, but Debian users think that way normally: understand that those 50.000 applications are not there because they're new; and most of what's new in already in the OS.

TC

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Re: "Software Centre"
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2019, 12:52:46 PM »
 

smhardesty

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Allow me to first make one thing very clear. I haven't even looked at a Windows based computer in over ten years. My responses here are therefore based on what I last saw on a Microsoft OS system 10 plus years ago. If changes and updates have occurred I am unaware of, I stand to be corrected or apprised and will gracefully do so.


Quote
I can use Synaptic. But new users, trying to come across from Windows (which i thought was part of the appeal) do struggle with it. It's heavy on initial information and daunting. I chose Lite for charity because i thought it would make it easier for people with little IT experience, or whose only experience would be WinMac.

First, your initial post, and therefore this thread, seemed to be primarily concerned with the "Software Center" installed by default by Linux Lite. You state that you "chose Lite" for people with little IT experience. That, in itself, is certainly open to interpretation. Are we speaking of completely computer illiterate individuals? Are they only occasional users of a borrowed computer running Win98? What level do you speak of? I stated on another thread that users new to Linux or just Linux Lite need basic instruction. If your intent is to load these older laptops up with Lite, deliver them to some individual that the distributes them to some young, first time Linux user with zero instruction, expect failure. Sorry to have to be blunt and state that, but it's a cold, hard, fact. I also stated elsewhere that any individual that is at all capable of finding their way around a Windows based PC has had some degree of instruction or training. A baby doesn't just sit down at the dinner table, grab a spoon, and feed itself. There is a relatively steep learning curve for that baby to learn the basics of using tableware to feed itself. The very same is true for computer use.

In the past I have had the displeasure of installing a Linux distribution on a friend's, neighbor's, or client's computer, then offering some very basic instruction only to hear back from the individual that "it sucks"/"it's junk"/"it won't work"/"it's nothing like Windows". Looking back I believe I should have offered even further instruction to a few of those people, but the fact is that most were so closed minded about trying something new they refused to apply even the slightest effort to researching and learning something on their own. This seems to be the mindset of a disappointing number of potential Linux users. Yes, they at least know how to move around in Windows. They then, for whatever reason, expect whatever distro they have chosen to be 100% intuitive and "just like Windows". If you want and expect Windows, then buy a Windows computer.


Quote
The recipients of these devices vary. Some may be excited about using and learning Linux. Many (most, just like everyone else) just wants to get stuff done. I don't deal directly with these people, i supply these machines for their case-workers to give them. I'm lucky the lady who runs the show was vaguely familiar with Linux and was receptive. Most charities i approached weren't interested: it's not WinMac :(

What i may be erroneously thinking is that people will get Linux Lite and go "i can only install these 20 programs?". Wipe it, and put Windows on it. This isn't my problem, but i love Linux and want people to know about it and use it (oh, and usually the hardware really can't copy with Windows 10). Its also possible that the limited choice that covers most app types is ok; that a more comprehensive range will just confuse people. But people are used to mobile phones with a billion apps, and WinMac with a billion apps so i don't know.

What drew me to LL was the online FAQ/help that covered some common errors and stuff, and i remember a useful error message that actually told the person how to fix it (for memory by linking to the FAQ). TBH i didn't even notice the sparsity of the Lite Software selection until i had trouble installing something via the Terminal and thought i'd see if it was in the 'software centre'.

I've only recently switched to Linux Lite for these peeps and i'm yet to get feedback. Depending on what they say, it may be the case that Linux Lite just isn't quite what i was looking for and i should continue to trial alternatives. I'll wait and see what happens with the recent batch before i do more.

Ouch! Oh, wow. I just read what you have stated about your involvement with the recipients, their case-workers, and the lady who runs the show. I now have the picture firmly envisioned. 1) You load an older, low powered laptop with Linux, deliver it to some lady, then walk away. 2) The "lady who runs the show" is only "vaguely familiar with" Linux of any flavor. 3) Case workers who probably know nothing about Linux and even less about Linux Lite then distribute the laptops directly to the recipients. Regardless of what I have said before, and might say after, this is a losing battle. Who do you expect to answer questions about Linux? Who is to provide instruction or advice? It seems you really do think these poor kids should just sit down at a PC and intuitively know everything they need to know to use the device. It's not going to happen, Derek. If I'm the first to say it to you, I'm sorry. If other members of this forum think I'm wrong and these kids are going to be sharp enough and bright enough to learn Linux from scratch, by themselves, I'm sure those members will chastise me and voice their opinions.

As to the "Software Center" and it's limited choices of software, unless changes have been made to Windows in the past ten plus years, where is there a "Software Center" or application similar to Synaptic to view and install software? Did Microsoft suddenly decide to provide a means to effortlessly install the "billions" of apps available for each and every version of Windows currently supported? How did they get around the proprietary software agreements? Are they allowing Windows users to install Microsoft Office for free on every Windows PC? You are asking Linux, and specifically Lite to offer every piece of software available in a simple, easy to use, software installer. If you want tens of thousands of free choices, learn Synaptic. Using only the default repositories you have literally tens of thousands of FREE software choices. How many similar choices are available for FREE for Windows? Shareware? Understand what shareware is and what is actually supposed to occur - PAYMENT for use. And what you may not be aware of is that you are completely free to add additional repositories to Synaptic. I'm not sure how many, but I have 5 or 6 additional added at the present time. Synaptic (or other means of updating) then updates not only the software choice, but every dependency that choice requires - effortlessly and without even having to think about it.

I'll also cover updating here briefly. You stated in another thread your displeasure with how "Lite Updates" worked. I suggested you "try looking into the tweaked Mint Update Manager that Ralphy has provided us". I'm guessing you haven't searched for, nor researched for your use, the tweaked update manager. I have to believe if you had, you would most certainly have posted some reply about how nice it will be to provide such a simple and easy to use update method for your laptop recipients.

Please don't expect ANY version of Linux, or any other OS, to be a "one size fits all", do everything for you, operating system. Those don't (and have never) exist. That includes PC-DOS/MS-DOS 1.0. Life, and computers, just don't work that way. Sorry.

.
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Re: "Software Centre"
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2019, 04:50:54 PM »
 

Derek_

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@Derek_  wrote: But people are used to mobile phones with a billion apps, and WinMac with a billion apps so i don't know.

You're right. You don't know. You're comparing apples and oranges. Apps as you refer to them here are not system files. Most of those billions are java and web language abstractions. Applications in synaptic and in so-called software centers include binaries and binary dependencies that integrate into your system.

Also I-phones, Android phones, Apple Macs, and Windows 10 are all built on much older system kernels and binaries than Ubuntu. Linux software uses abstraction layers of java in applications like LibreOffice but most of those billions of apps you refer to are a patchwork quilt of useless code (often 32bit) too OLD to run efficiently and securely on newer Linux systems. When it comes to "apps" as you refer to them "new" in the Windows/Mac/Android world is very often not new.  Maybe somebody built it just yesterday, and wow it still works on Windows 10, but it's code base is too old for Ubuntu.

Also anyone who thinks synaptic package manager is too complex shouldn't go near the CLI of a modern Linux system.

Also the main problem with "software centers" the way you mean them is that they are resource hogs in GUI mode. I used to hate KDE's, and I wish it was never added into Ubuntu. A lot of applications in them are not included in the initial install of whatever base system they're on because they a often LESS efficient alternatives. The same can be said of Debian's synaptic as well, but Debian users think that way normally: understand that those 50.000 applications are not there because they're new; and most of what's new in already in the OS.

TC

Relevance?

Also great, you'd like to exclude 95% of the public because they don't want to get techy. Does THAT meet the mission?

As for resource hogs, surely that's mostly just how its built. And even if it is, its not open all the time - it is opened to install software then closed.
 

Re: "Software Centre"
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2019, 05:17:38 PM »
 

Derek_

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Ouch! Oh, wow. I just read what you have stated about your involvement with the recipients, their case-workers, and the lady who runs the show. I now have the picture firmly envisioned. 1) You load an older, low powered laptop with Linux, deliver it to some lady, then walk away. 2) The "lady who runs the show" is only "vaguely familiar with" Linux of any flavor. 3) Case workers who probably know nothing about Linux and even less about Linux Lite then distribute the laptops directly to the recipients. Regardless of what I have said before, and might say after, this is a losing battle. Who do you expect to answer questions about Linux? Who is to provide instruction or advice? It seems you really do think these poor kids should just sit down at a PC and intuitively know everything they need to know to use the device. It's not going to happen, Derek. If I'm the first to say it to you, I'm sorry. If other members of this forum think I'm wrong and these kids are going to be sharp enough and bright enough to learn Linux from scratch, by themselves, I'm sure those members will chastise me and voice their opinions.

As to the "Software Center" and it's limited choices of software, unless changes have been made to Windows in the past ten plus years, where is there a "Software Center" or application similar to Synaptic to view and install software? Did Microsoft suddenly decide to provide a means to effortlessly install the "billions" of apps available for each and every version of Windows currently supported? How did they get around the proprietary software agreements? Are they allowing Windows users to install Microsoft Office for free on every Windows PC? You are asking Linux, and specifically Lite to offer every piece of software available in a simple, easy to use, software installer. If you want tens of thousands of free choices, learn Synaptic. Using only the default repositories you have literally tens of thousands of FREE software choices. How many similar choices are available for FREE for Windows? Shareware? Understand what shareware is and what is actually supposed to occur - PAYMENT for use. And what you may not be aware of is that you are completely free to add additional repositories to Synaptic. I'm not sure how many, but I have 5 or 6 additional added at the present time. Synaptic (or other means of updating) then updates not only the software choice, but every dependency that choice requires - effortlessly and without even having to think about it.

I'll also cover updating here briefly. You stated in another thread your displeasure with how "Lite Updates" worked. I suggested you "try looking into the tweaked Mint Update Manager that Ralphy has provided us". I'm guessing you haven't searched for, nor researched for your use, the tweaked update manager. I have to believe if you had, you would most certainly have posted some reply about how nice it will be to provide such a simple and easy to use update method for your laptop recipients.

Please don't expect ANY version of Linux, or any other OS, to be a "one size fits all", do everything for you, operating system. Those don't (and have never) exist. That includes PC-DOS/MS-DOS 1.0. Life, and computers, just don't work that way. Sorry.


Update manager isn't relevant here. I haven't built another Lite laptop to look at the Mint Update Manager.

I get it. You're being protective. I'm the new guy who has come in here and shat on your favourite distro (an assumption) by asking a few questions and reporting a possible bug. You're also being very presumptuous. Apart from a greater range of software to choose from from an easy to use Software Centre, what else have i asked for in this thread that warrants such paternal replies? Since you didn't ask, most of the devices i've supplied to date had Ubuntu. But when Ubuntu went Gnome, its workflow became just too 'different' for a lot of people. It was strange, it was also more resource intensive. So i went to the more traditional UI. As this switch to Lite is extremely recent, i need to get more feedback. Now that i know that the devs aren't interested in a Software Centre setup, i have to determine if Lite is what i'll use. Please do remember that its Lite that is different here: A Software Centre is 'normal'.

The devs have spoken: they're not looking to change the model of the Lite Software, though are willing to add selections to it. I accept that - its their distro. Move on, smhardesty.
 

Re: "Software Centre"
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2019, 07:02:25 PM »
 

supergamer

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Ubuntu stopped development on their "software center". They changed to gnome software, which can be installed at least on a 16.04 base, in synaptic. I do not use it and have never installed it but a simple search turned it up. I hope it fits your needs.
 

Re: "Software Centre"
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2019, 07:22:53 PM »
 

smhardesty

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Just no response. Nothing can be done for you.
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