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General => On Topic => Topic started by: Jerry on December 21, 2019, 03:19:29 AM

Title: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 21, 2019, 03:19:29 AM
I've been noticing on the Internet there is talk of KDE catching up to XFCE in terms of performance and memory usage.
Curiosity got the better of me and I decided to see if there was anything in it, and yeah, they are pretty close now.

A quick LL build of KDE...

(https://i.imgur.com/PdtJdDU.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/oyplOgb.png)

Interesting...
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Artim on December 21, 2019, 07:44:05 AM
How has that happened?  KDE on par with Xfce?!  Not long ago I would have thought it impossible.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: UltraCookie on December 21, 2019, 08:11:49 AM
That's cool. Always thought KDE looked really nice but never tried it as my laptop isn't the most powerful machine.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 21, 2019, 08:24:30 AM
Doing LL on KDE would require running a simultaneous project, would it not?
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 21, 2019, 08:26:01 AM
How has that happened?  KDE on par with Xfce?!  Not long ago I would have thought it impossible.
The main difference is that KDE has a massive, almost inexhaustible supply of developers, where as XFCE have just a handful. I really like KDE and how close it is to Windows and the level of configuration available. Plasma is really nice too.

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 21, 2019, 08:26:52 AM
Doing LL on KDE would require running a simultaneous project, would it not?
It's just a fun experiment to verify the hype.

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: trinidad on December 21, 2019, 09:59:03 AM
All those KDE developers, you'd think they could complete the APIs for wayland. I came up on Linux KDE stuff after the mainframe era and moved from Suse to Kubuntu but gave up on their stuff after a while as it grew heavier. Now those reasons all seem unimportant given modern hardware. Of late I have been having a very good experience with Debian 10 gnome on wayland and I expect KDE will get there too in the next two years and be on wayland (not Xwayland) on Debian stable. I wonder how XFCE (which has become very popular on Debian) will deal with that future. I would guess they will continue on Xwayland and not develop any specific DE wayland APIs, or maybe just wait for KDE to finish theirs and port those.

https://community.kde.org/KWin/Wayland
https://community.kde.org/Plasma/Wayland_Showstoppers

TC   
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 21, 2019, 10:02:06 AM
How does KDE get this popularity if so many people seem to have had abandoned it?
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: trinidad on December 21, 2019, 10:13:14 AM
Plasma, QT base, look and feel, and a few superior applications, and a European home office. A full featured (Suse) alternative DE to (RHEL) gnome. XFCE is a small player by comparison.

TC
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 21, 2019, 10:30:24 AM
Plasma, QT base, look and feel, and a few superior applications, and a European home office. A full featured (Suse) alternative DE to (RHEL) gnome. XFCE is a small player by comparison.

TC
Well then, wish KDE to surpass Gnome then.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on December 21, 2019, 02:57:10 PM
That KDE looks really nice! :) @Jerry did you install it via apt-get or did you built it by source along with the system? What did you use? kde-standard? kde-full? kde-plasma-desktop? I have a box running with kde-plasma-desktop and it doesn't look like this. What theme is that? By "A quick LL build of KDE" do you mean this has no xfce in it but KDE only? are you using all the desktop effects? did you customize that to your liking? disabled some effects? sorry for asking so many things but I'm really curious as to what someone as experienced as you uses and customizes KDE. I've always found KDE interesting; krunner is such a great feature, if only xfce had something similar  ;D However, I also find it kind of overwhelming and a bit tiresome; You click on an item which opens a new item pointing to a sub-menu which points to another sub-menu so you can just do something as simple as setting a keyboard shortcut... tiresome ... xfce is ready to work in a blink of an eye. I admit I've never used it for too long because of this and it eating my pc's resources, that being said, I got curious after reading a few posts on the web stating the very same thing you said; it doesn't seem to be such a resource hoge anymore, at least for now. They seem to be on the KDE 3 path, which was "lighter too" unlike version 4 which many people complain about. There's a fork of KDE 3 called trinity-desktop. Q4OS, a Debian based distro uses it as its default DE and I tried in a VM in Arch as well as in debian. I also tried Q4OS in a VM too and trinity is very light when compared to KDE 4.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Teddy on December 21, 2019, 05:08:34 PM
How has that happened?  KDE on par with Xfce?!  Not long ago I would have thought it impossible.
The main difference is that KDE has a massive, almost inexhaustible supply of developers, where as XFCE have just a handful. I really like KDE and how close it is to Windows and the level of configuration available. Plasma is really nice too.

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

KDE has been my go-to DE for many years. Back in the KDE4 days, it was a bit heavy on RAM usage but still, many levels ahead of GNOME which is a downright pig on RAM usage with not that many features to back it up (at least this used to be true a few years ago). KDE5 (Plasma 5) is mostly at the point now where it can compete with XFCE's RAM usage with the compositors and extra eye candy effects disabled. At idle from a cold boot on OpenSUSE (probably KDE's flagship distro besides KDE Neon) it always was below 1GB of usage and more often than not under 650MB.

XFCE's level of polish really doesn't compare to KDE when you compare default look vs default look. With the right theme, fonts and icons and extra applets on the notification area, XFCE isn't that far off from KDE either (LL theming is spot-on!).

I wonder how LXDE and the Enlightenment Desktop compare to XFCE now in polish/features/RAM usage (and the Moksha Desktop fork from Bohdi Linux which I believe came from E17). Clearly its been a few years since I've hopped distros lol. Guess it's time to experiment again!
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on December 21, 2019, 05:24:32 PM
Quote
I wonder how LXDE and the Enlightenment Desktop compare to XFCE now in polish/features/RAM usage (and the Moksha Desktop fork from Bohdi Linux which I believe came from E17).

It just so happens that I recently tried these as well as lxqt in antiX running from a usb with persistence enabled and while lxde, enlightenment and lxqt used much less RAM (around 300mb) they don't compare with xfce when it comes to ease of use and customization (at least for me).  I've tried many DEs over the years and always found myself back to xfce, I just feel at home with it. I've also tried a few window managers and find awesome-wm being the best for me.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 22, 2019, 12:06:02 AM
@Moltke how I build an OS and get it to such low mb on first boot unfortunately, needs to remain a secret - it's my bread and butter and took literally years to reach a certain point. I haven't disabled any effects yet or done any of my tweaks so I can imagine that we would slip well below 400mb as a final product. The login theme is Sweet SDDM and the desktop theme is just Breeze and Breeze for icons.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: torreydale on December 22, 2019, 04:30:34 AM
I've avoided KDE because it, Gnome, and Unity all seemed to require more resources.  But if we can get it to be Lite, I'm game.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 22, 2019, 04:45:10 AM
It's a space I'm watching closely. With so many developers onboard and it getting lighter by the day, with high configuration, it would be criminal to ignore it.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 22, 2019, 04:54:17 AM
I guess there is no reason to be ideological about XFCE. The point is, to be professional, though.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: minesheep on December 22, 2019, 05:55:56 AM
Memory usage on manjarolinux on virtualbox in live mode and only htop open.
xfce about 720MB memory used
kde about 710MB memory used
gnome about 1500MB memory used task manger used because I had no idea how to install htop
with mint and kde I got about 700MB memory usage too.
Since I have many gigabytes of ram I care about CPU more.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on December 22, 2019, 07:35:24 AM
@Moltke how I build an OS and get it to such low mb on first boot unfortunately, needs to remain a secret - it's my bread and butter and took literally years to reach a certain point. I haven't disabled any effects yet or done any of my tweaks so I can imagine that we would slip well below 400mb as a final product. The login theme is Sweet SDDM and the desktop theme is just Breeze and Breeze for icons.

Thanks for your answer @Jerry and I wasn't asking as much as a secret, sorry if it sounded like I was,  guess I chose the wrong words, also, I just took a closer and better look at that screenshot and noticed the 5.x on the top, I thought this wasn't that serious, my bad, should've known better. By the way, in my VM running KDE, the RAM usage at boot is around the same as yours. Disabling some desktop effects; minimize, maximize, close and open windows effects didn't change that so I guess it doesn't hurt letting them on, I also use breeze; icons and desktop.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 22, 2019, 08:16:58 AM
No need to feel guilty, @Moltke. Jerry should take your question as a remark of recognition. I mean, when in a restaurant, you asked a staff member for a secret of taste to certain dish - meaning, you liked it - and they told you that unfortunately, this is a secret, coming from years of experience, nobody ought to feel offended, right? On the contrary, such question would be a sign that you may come and eat at the place more often.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 22, 2019, 11:06:06 AM
One of the reasons for making this post was to also gauge how people felt if we switched to KDE. It wouldn't be in 5.x for obvious reasons one being can you imagine rewriting almost an entire Help Manual.... ouch :)

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 22, 2019, 11:12:54 AM
I do think you are not eager to switch to KDE, @Jerry, but I assume you take is as a professional responsibility to observe a field of shared interest, notably for potential profit, but also perhaps for potential competition coming from that direction. Either how, y'know my opinion, if it works, it could be given a shot in experiment, but the point is, whether the difference, is worth the fuss. Personally, if I do not like the KDE for whatever the reason and you offer only in KDE, I would call it an emergency.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: torreydale on December 22, 2019, 12:07:20 PM
@Jerry

Quote
One of the reasons for making this post was to also gauge how people felt if we switched to KDE. It wouldn't be in 5.x for obvious reasons one being can you imagine rewriting almost an entire Help Manual.... ouch :)

I did consider that.  So it sounds like the earliest chance for us to see KDE on Linux Lite is 2022.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 22, 2019, 12:15:39 PM
Correct. Although, I wouldn't rule out an experimental build sometime between now and 2021. Let's keep this discussion going. It's a massive decision, and I look forward to a variety of responses and views on both sides.

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 22, 2019, 12:25:32 PM
Why I'm in favour of a future with KDE.

- It is Windows like
- Massive development team
- Detailed, almost to a point of overdoing it, configurability
- Stunning themes
- Mobile phone management with KDE Connect
- Continuously improving performance
- Konsole, has to be one of the best ootb Terminals available


Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Linuxkumpel on December 22, 2019, 12:38:18 PM
I have something about Xfce, KDE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo45bo1jvZI&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo45bo1jvZI&feature=youtu.be)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: trinidad on December 22, 2019, 12:59:59 PM
Honestly I think KDE would be a better choice for the future. Wayland is here to stay and I think KDE will seat itself on wayland completely within two years, whereas XFCE may sideline itself on Xwayland over that very issue. I don't care how long Xorg hangs on, maybe forever, and if it develops further great, but application developers are more and more going to choose to develop pure wayland applications as we move into the future. That's where things really stand despite opinions otherwise. Wayland is just better and lighter with modern video codecs and OS security. Chromebook OS already uses wayland with sommelier. LibreOffice has run on wayland for quite some time now and Firefox now builds for pure wayland when available even though some parts still require Xwayland.

What KDE would offer to LL aesthetically is an interface that could be customized to be even more familiar to Windows 10 refugees. I remain of the opinion that LL is still the best starter Linux DE for people newly coming from Windows and I always still install it for newcomers interested in Linux. Some things in the KDE GUI are natively more like the Windows GUI than XFCE will ever be. I also believe, given the LL base is Ubuntu, KDE would offer better DE stability for the near future. It may well be time for change.

TC
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 22, 2019, 01:50:36 PM
Plenty of smaller but nonetheless popular distributions out there, did not even feature KDE option at the time when I was searching for a home use Linux. Suddenly, KDE kicks the door in, falls right into favor and everybody jumps on a bandwagon, after years of having the KDE neglected? Sounds efficient, but cheap. I do understand XFCE may not provide a future as bright as KDE, from what is being pointed out in this thread - I am a layman, after all - but some choices should maintain at least an appeal of good taste. I would not be as doubtful if Jerry decided to switch from XFCE to something even simpler, but it is just because KDE seems so promising, that it brings such doubt.

Notwithstanding, I can see why Jerry could opt for the KDE as soon as sensible. XFCE is nothing out of ordinary, while Linux Mint has this fancy 'Cinnamon' thing, next to XFCE and MATE. If KDE is going to be the next best thing for Linux, then going straight for the KDE would win a big edge for Lite, with all other distros wasting part time their energy, maintaining the good appeal of having other flavors available as well.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on December 22, 2019, 01:52:59 PM
Quote
Some things in the KDE GUI are natively more like the Windows GUI than XFCE will ever be
Not so sure about this. KDE requires some learning, and yes, I know there's a lot of documentation available for that but still. XFCE is esier to use and unlike KDE you can customize it in no time without breaking it and ending with an usuable desktop, it happened to me some time ago. I haven't played too much with it this time since I've been trying to figure out how to make kwin and pulseaudio to run at boot, they're both added in autostart but they don't start, have to open konsole and run
Code: [Select]
kwin-x11 --replace & and
Code: [Select]
pulseaudio --check
Code: [Select]
pulseaudio -D so they do. I should mention that this VM has XFCE installed too, don't know if that's creating some kind of conflict within the system cause now when logged to xfce pulseaudio didn't start either. @Jerry  I installed sddm and wanted to try that sweet theme but I got some errors, something about Mail.qml:89:9: type clock unavailable and something else but can't read it in the preview window when running
Code: [Select]
sddm-greeter --test-mode --theme /usr/share/sddm/themes/Sweet I don't know if I installed it the wrong way; downloaded the theme from kde.store.org, extracted it and copied it to /usr/share/sddm/themes is that how it should be done? or is there other way? I googled about it but couldn't find anything. BTW, not sure and will have to check but it seems to me that sddm is lighter than lightdm too which is installed in the VM as well.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 22, 2019, 02:10:26 PM
It should be noted here that my decision ultimately considers the future and beyond in regards to this topic. How can we best serve our community when it comes to core software choices?
XFCE , what is it's future? KDE, what lies ahead? What Windows like DE has the most stable, promising and well supported future?
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 22, 2019, 02:12:22 PM
@Moltke sorry, but I don't want to spend time in this thread troubleshooting KDE installations. Take a look at the Arch KDE Wiki, it's very good.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 22, 2019, 02:16:10 PM
We must also face one assumption, which is, either with or without KDE, Lite at now is probably not going to be a 'number one' Linux distribution in any seizable future. It is the matter of doing things not only efficiently, but also with self respect - the respect of own time. It is not about being just good enough, it is about being reasonable altogether.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Linuxkumpel on December 22, 2019, 02:19:36 PM
KDE is a playground of customizations. If you don't know your way around, you might run into problems. It requires a rethinking of the LL users. Many things are hot differently and work differently. I'm sick of Xfce.  ;)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 22, 2019, 02:22:49 PM
The only real reason to change, is to satisfy the craving, but worse if there comes the regret.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: firenice03 on December 22, 2019, 02:58:51 PM
Why I'm in favour of a future with KDE.

- It is Windows like
- Massive development team
- Detailed, almost to a point of overdoing it, configurability
- Stunning themes
- Mobile phone management with KDE Connect
- Continuously improving performance
- Konsole, has to be one of the best ootb Terminals available


Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk




I'm not a DE follower, I tried different ones early on but why I stuck with LL and XFCE... Not only speed but stability. Other distro's running XFCE didn't seem as stable, or just worked out of the box.


Its technology - one has to stay informed, one needs to trial similar/competitive software. XFCE may have also seen this and may answer back with better performance of their own or more eye candy/features or they don't - but who does that benefit?


What about the what if's - What if XFCE went away? testing now - saves for the future.


I'm sure before anything became more than the idea, We would see a 2nd DE along side what LL is today, a trial/beta and even as it became a stable release it would coexist for at least a series to be adopted by all... (my assumption)


Change is inevitable..
The only real reason to change, is to satisfy the craving, but worse if there comes the regret.


No its not, change is for growth, additional features, make a new path from the old...
- What if FAT never grew/changed No FAT32 or EXT3/4, XFS, BTRF or NTFS - we'd be satisfied with small partitions.
Have to the goods with the bads -- Will there be work?, of course there will...
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on December 22, 2019, 04:33:35 PM
@Moltke sorry, but I don't want to spend time in this thread troubleshooting KDE installations. Take a look at the Arch KDE Wiki, it's very good.

@Jerry It's ok, I understand. I wasn't really asking as much for assistance but more like sharing. I have, that is how I learnt how to preview the theme ;D but haven't seen how to solve that ... yet. I want to say that I totally support this initiative, idea.  I love XFCE, it just works and it can be tweaked (https://wiki.xfce.org/tips) to run even smoother. Also, it doesn't take more than 10 mins to do basic customizations like keyboard shortcuts which in KDE I find kind of overwhelming; it seems that every key-combo is already in used for something else lol and since I'm not sure what changing that will do I leave it as it is, that being said, I think it's a good decision that you think on the future, the present is brilliant so why limit ourselves with so many posibilities denying the chance for improvement? I'd like to ask your opinion about kwin performance when compared to xfwm4.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 22, 2019, 08:07:29 PM

I'd like to ask your opinion about kwin performance when compared to xfwm4.


I don't have one yet, it's still early days. First impressions are that I don't see much of a difference.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 22, 2019, 08:13:49 PM
Gotta say, I'm not a big fan of the KDE Menu. Too much clicking. So I installed this one...

(https://i.imgur.com/MXgAyxB.png)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 22, 2019, 09:24:41 PM
Oh my...

(https://i.imgur.com/rIfHoem.png)

All applications loaded, LibreOffice etc...
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 22, 2019, 09:27:46 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/yHb0ByZ.gif)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on December 22, 2019, 10:16:41 PM

I'd like to ask your opinion about kwin performance when compared to xfwm4.


I don't have one yet, it's still early days. First impressions are that I don't see much of a difference.

Yeah, I feel the same. 371mb? Hey, good improvement there! keep it up! ;D

Quote
Gotta say, I'm not a big fan of the KDE Menu. Too much clicking. So I installed this one...

Well, you can use the keyboard; left Alt+arrow keys to navigate through the items without even touching the mouse, once you find the one you're looking for just hit enter and it'll start. 
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 22, 2019, 10:23:50 PM

Well, you can use the keyboard; Alt+arrow keys to navigate through the items withoout even touching the mouse, once you find the one you're looking for just hit enter and it'll start. 


Having used computers for nearly 3 decades now, I'm well aware of that :)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on December 22, 2019, 10:39:51 PM

Well, you can use the keyboard; Alt+arrow keys to navigate through the items withoout even touching the mouse, once you find the one you're looking for just hit enter and it'll start. 


Having used computers for nearly 3 decades now, I'm well aware of that :)

But you can't do that in whisker menu, can you? At least not by default. I'm asking cause now I'm curious, it never ocurred to me to try that.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 22, 2019, 11:04:11 PM
Quote from: firenice03
What about the what if's - What if XFCE went away? testing now - saves for the future.
That, would be another real reason to change.

But, what if LL went away?

Quote from: firenice03
Its technology - one has to stay informed, one needs to trial similar/competitive software. XFCE may have also seen this and may answer back with better performance of their own or more eye candy/features or they don't - but who does that benefit?
On one hand, true, XFCE may get motivated to improve their package, because it seems unlikely they would simply want to drop the ball all of a sudden. On the other hand, it was pointed out in this thread how the scope of XFCE team, as well as social backing, cannot match those of KDE. Which is weird, since XFCE is what literally everyone uses or have used until now, while KDE was the favorite package of everybody, that nobody had actually used. I mean, was that support theoretical or what?

Quote from:  
No its not, change is for growth, additional features, make a new path from the old...
- What if FAT never grew/changed No FAT32 or EXT3/4, XFS, BTRF or NTFS - we'd be satisfied with small partitions.
These are not the 80's. One guy is not going to revolutionize the industry, at least statistically speaking.

Ideally speaking, good change emerges from cohesiveness, coherence and concord.

In the end, I guess it boils down to the question of, does switch to KDE meet the purposes and ideals of Linux Lite better than staying with XFCE, minding also the economy of that switch?
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: trinidad on December 23, 2019, 07:43:09 AM
"Too much clicking."

Kinda like Windows utilities that cycle you through their redundant interfaces. Good or bad for ex-Windows users? I haven't counted the steps but in some cases might be about the same.

" since XFCE is what literally everyone uses"
Sorry no, not even close really.
TC
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 23, 2019, 09:53:38 AM
" since XFCE is what literally everyone uses"
Sorry no, not even close really.
Very well, but I would be grateful if you could enlighten me some, then, as I believe you do not count in the users going text mode only on servers?
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on December 23, 2019, 11:35:09 AM
" since XFCE is what literally everyone uses"
Sorry no, not even close really.
Very well, but I would be grateful if you could enlighten me some, then, as I believe you do not count in the users going text mode only on servers?

I think "which DE is the most used" is kind of relative and user-case specific. I love XFCE, if you install it, using something like Debian netinstall, CentOS core or Arch, the download size is about 10mb and the install size is around 35mb; you get a panel, thunar and a couple of other apps (can't remember now). It doesn't ship with the xfce terminal or catfish or whiskermenu or a web browser or ristretto or screnshooter, at least not in Debian and/or Arch, can't remember if it does in CentOS, been a while since I last used it. Kde-plasma-desktop which doesn't install all the KDE apps but a few ones i.e kwrite,  download size is around 150mb and install size is around 350mb. Kde-full download size is around 600mb and install size is around 1400mb. Gnome download size is around 450mb and install size is around the same as kde-full. kde-full and Gnome both install their own apps; video player, music player, web browser, file manager, image viewer, mail client (kmail), terminal and some more stuff. I also wondered few months back what people used and most of the polls and posts I read listed Gnome and KDE as the top 2, one of the reasons is they offer all of those apps by default so people don't have to go and install anything else. I don't like Gnome, it's been a while since I last tried it though but as far as I read on the web it hasn't changed a bit and still is a resource hog, plus I don't really like its design. Some people don't even use a full DE at all but a window manager like openbox, i3, awesome, icewm ... some people don't really choose their DE; if you install Linux Lite is XFCE, if you go with Solus is budgie, Bodhi uses enlightenment, Fedora Gnome (the default one not the spins), KaOS KDE, Linux Mint cinnamon (the default) and there are many others which offer different choices of DEs as well as WMs, yes, in some of these you can install a different DE but sometimes you have to work really hard to make it work as you want it to, as I did to install and use a different DE in LL in a VM some time ago. So no, I don't think XFCE is "what everyone uses" nor I think is KDE or Gnome or any other for that matter, people will use what they see fit best for them, in my case it's been XFCE and from some time now awesome-wm, but like the old saying goes "There's no accounting for taste (my note: and/or needs)"
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 23, 2019, 12:07:53 PM
Thanks, @Moltke, that was a thoughtful explanation. It is really up to Jerry, how will the LL unfold. For my assumption of 'not a number one', I could imagine LL being perhaps a 'number four' Linux distro in terms of casual popularity, in an ideal and very favorable realm, if Jerry literally danced on his eyelids to help this happen, but for how you portrayed the vision of prefabricated distros altogether, I start to believe everyone should actually assemble their own distro, albeit this would not be particularly Windows-folk friendly, right? Anyway, with a mission to intercept the loose Windows folks in mind, at least those Windows folks who have enough of situational recognition to see the possible benefits of using Linux, we may sometimes look like idolizing Windows here around LL. Which is a dangerous trait of appeal in the GNU/Linux world.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Artim on December 23, 2019, 07:34:24 PM
Most of the newbie-friendly desktops choose Xfce or Cinnamon, but an old favorite - PCLinuxOS - has always been KDE and other desktops were used to make it lighter for those with modest hardware.  Perhaps that won't be necessary soon. 
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: firenice03 on December 23, 2019, 09:48:32 PM
" since XFCE is what literally everyone uses"
Sorry no, not even close really.
Very well, but I would be grateful if you could enlighten me some, then, as I believe you do not count in the users going text mode only on servers?


No, one cannot count text - minimal - only, that is without a desktop interface, besides most servers(RHEL/CentOS) I do believe have either KDE or Gnome for a desktop GUI. Minimal no GUI.

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 23, 2019, 11:01:40 PM
Right here on this very website, there is an advert for 'Linux Mint', among else, showing up. 'Mint' comes only in three flavours, as for now. Should we take one of the most indie pop distros, that has adverts flying over the web, as a measure of what actually is rad and what a matter of convention? Like, once I asked Jerry to allow choosing a default web browser at the Lite install, assuming that FireFox may not be the choice of everyman already, therefore perhaps even to swap FireFox for something else. Jerry said somewhere that he could not, for the reasons I describe purely as conventional. You see, to take convention for the choice of public, is actually a mistake. But with KDE breakthrough, these may both merge. Maybe even there will emerge one day an ultimate face of a Linux distro, composed only of 'the rightest' things, who knows?
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 23, 2019, 11:33:21 PM
I want us to shift from our personal experiences to what are the advantages/disadvantages to future users (Windows Mac converts) of a KDE LL. I'd also like to hear if switching to KDE would be a deal breaker for any members. Thank you.

363mb 64 bit KDE...lol..now imagine what that would be in 2022 with all the development they do. Interesting.

(https://i.imgur.com/GR08jDu.png)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 23, 2019, 11:39:57 PM
'KDE LL' sounds good. From what was pointed out, the infrastructure is also a big reason.

I guess as long as other DE exist, there will always be alternative 'go2' distros featuring them.

So until the end of 2021?
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: robinc on December 24, 2019, 01:03:00 AM
One of the important factors with KDE Plasma is how well GTK3 apps integrate - or rather dis-integrate.

Granted there are various utilities that help to improve the experience but it can be a visual bear if you are accustomed to all your apps looking like they come from the same stable.

The rapid pace of KDE development against a - shall we say "slow and steady" - platform like Debian/Ubuntu means that the released version of Plasma can be years ahead of what is available to end users. There are ongoing conflicts with Qt versions clashing with some apps as well.

In fairness I think that you do need to be on a rolling release base like PCLOS in order to get the benefit of the development process which is behind KDE.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 24, 2019, 06:54:23 AM
Good point robinc.

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Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: torreydale on December 24, 2019, 12:12:45 PM
@Jerry ,

It isn't a deal breaker for me.  I trust that whatever release you and other developers put out will continue to stay fast, simple, and free.  The folks I've helped make the transition to Linux Lite wouldn't care much either.

In addition to KDE being bulky in the past, I avoided it because it was "too" feature rich and I didn't know what I was doing going from Arch based to Debian based to Fedora based, etc.  I didn't know how to run updates or install software.  It was a tad overwhelming being so new to Linux at the time, and the distros I tried didn't have documentation as good as Linux Lite.  So I felt lost.  I'm sure whatever help manual is created, coupled with the forum support and testing will make a transition as seamless as any other series change.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: TheDead on December 24, 2019, 01:17:21 PM
But you can't do that in whisker menu, can you? At least not by default. I'm asking cause now I'm curious, it never ocurred to me to try that.

I second that. When I started ion Linux, the main reason I finally chose XFCE was the Whiskers menu.
Seeing the program descriptions right in the menu trememdously helped the transition...
And no, before anyone replies to this, browsing over each entry to have the pop-up description is not as noob-friendly! ;)

On a side note, for the memory usage, it may be unrelated but could it be that the 64bits version in KDE is just more optimised than XFCE currently?
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 24, 2019, 06:58:53 PM
The default Menu is growing on me. The more I use and customize it, the easier it appears for me to use.

(https://i.imgur.com/MHawHXL.png)

I'm currently going through and adding all the software that will be default. In some cases, original software like Gimp is held onto, in other cases where appearance and features dominate, new applications replace the old ones. Eg. KSysgurd replaces Htop. Ksysguard is both a system monitor and a process killer/task manager. You can also create and download tabs, pretty awesome.

(https://i.imgur.com/Th4QHbg.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/pSA7hDT.png)

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 24, 2019, 07:11:40 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/ri5DFXS.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/SReWep5.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/AN2nkvj.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/unK35fu.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/i7YOxVj.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/vr8W2Ru.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/NyqaFDv.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/MqFa3IR.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/z3ZmZzU.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/yYEAWCy.png)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 24, 2019, 09:01:45 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/AybdKRB.png)

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/264/241/9e9.gif)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 24, 2019, 11:53:45 PM
The noise around transitioning of LL from XFCE to KDE should grant it some extra media attention.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on December 25, 2019, 11:20:34 AM
Quote
but for how you portrayed the vision of prefabricated distros altogether, I start to believe everyone should actually assemble their own distro, albeit this would not be particularly Windows-folk friendly, right?

Well, you learn a lot about the system when you install every component by yourself, however, some distros like LL, MX-Linux, Manjaro do a very good job providing basic apps and features to get you started, so I guess  "everyone should actually assemble their own distro" is not necessarily true since having people like Jerry doing the hard work and doing it so well for you so you can just enjoy your OS out of the box, making your "computing life" easier, might be the safest path to take cause assembling an OS might not be as easy and simple as it sounds, in fact, it's not.

Quote
The default Menu is growing on me. The more I use and customize it, the easier it appears for me to use.

I've been playing with KDE's desktop Plasma since yesterday morning, so it's been almost 2 days since I last logged to xfce lol and I feel the same about the menu; search capabilities are really handy. I've been using a lot krunner too which I've always found a must-have feature - I use cerebro in xfce to have something "similar" not as powerful though - I've solved the kwin issue and it starts at boot fine now. I finally learnt how to set my keyboard shortcuts, it was easier than I thought actually. Also, regarding sweet sddm theme, which I failed to install before cause I'd done it the wrong way and the right one it's as easy as going to system preferences/settings >>  startup and shutdown >> login screen - not sure this is the actual English wording since mine is in Spanish - and install the theme from there. Been reading here https://userbase.kde.org/Plasma/Tips and had applied some of those tips & tricks which are quite helpful.  RAM usage is around 450mb at boot.

(https://i.imgur.com/tZsHxtE.png) 

This is running on Debian Sid in a VM. :)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: tek10 on December 26, 2019, 08:59:13 PM
Considering the potential benefits Jerry has mentioned, I would have no concerns about a Lite KDE.

My introduction and 1st Linux distro was Knoppix, from a live cd. It sent me looking for a KDE based distro to install, and I eventually replaced Windows 7 with Kubuntu. That was back in 2012 and KDE has really improved with the development of Plasma 5. Most new Windows converts will have hardware that would have no problem with today's KDE, especially if it's properly preconfigured.

For really old hardware there are better options than either xfce or KDE. That type of computer user is not what I would perceive as the target audience for Lite.

The Lite team can configure KDE to be very similar in appearance and basic operation to Windows, and to perform wonderfully on any hardware that can run Windows 10. Since it's modern and highly configurable, users can customize their OS as their confidence and skills improve with use. Sticking with Lite as a result, there are more likely to be recommendations to friends to try Lite as a first Linux OS.

As a final thought, since Mint has dropped their KDE version, there would be more differentiation of Lite as a beginner Linux OS.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: tek10 on December 26, 2019, 09:27:10 PM
Quote
The rapid pace of KDE development against a - shall we say "slow and steady" - platform like Debian/Ubuntu means that the released version of Plasma can be years ahead of what is available to end users. There are ongoing conflicts with Qt versions clashing with some apps as well.

In fairness I think that you do need to be on a rolling release base like PCLOS in order to get the benefit of the development process which is behind KDE.

While true to a degree, with the Ubuntu LTS base, it would be only 2 years old if a user upgraded to the next LL Series shortly after release. I'm seeing a trend for more and more people to want a stable OS vs cutting edge. The KDE team has likely made the same observation and makes a Plasma LTS. This would seem to fit the target audience of LL.


A much less desirable possibility would be basing LL on KDE neon...
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 27, 2019, 05:12:00 AM

A much less desirable possibility would be basing LL on KDE neon...


Wouldn't happen. All our builds are based off LL, we don't need to base off anyone elses full distro :)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: trinidad on December 27, 2019, 11:08:45 AM
KDE Neon is not really a distribution. A user has the opportunity to "tune" it into one and use daily build software from KDE, but stability and constant updates would make it a poor choice for a new user DE. Good user friendly examples of KDE desktops with stability would be Suse Enterprise or Debian stable, and a little less so RHEL and Ubuntu LTS. LL could be added to that list given its base stability.

On another point in this discussion LL going to "rolling release" would be a deal breaker for me and for me recommending LL as a starter DE for Windows refugees.

Also Qt has its own list  of problems, though probably not insurmountable on a "stable" release type distribution.
TC
 
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 27, 2019, 01:02:22 PM
LTS only!

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: TheDead on December 28, 2019, 04:47:56 PM
@Jerry
The pictures you sent showing descriptions in the menu almost sold me KDE! ;)
If you can have that and categories I"ll give it a try in your test build.

Also, is KDE easier to manage for appearance setting. icons and "theme-ing" than XFCE?
I always had some trouble going from one config page to another for basically the "looks" of the DE.

And side question, do you have to re-program your Lite "softwares" for KDE? :-S
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on December 28, 2019, 08:15:59 PM
@Jerry
The pictures you sent showing descriptions in the menu almost sold me KDE! ;)
If you can have that and categories I"ll give it a try in your test build.

Also, is KDE easier to manage for appearance setting. icons and "theme-ing" than XFCE?
I always had some trouble going from one config page to another for basically the "looks" of the DE.

And side question, do you have to re-program your Lite "softwares" for KDE? :-S

@TheDead yes, you can add categories if that's what's you're asking https://docs.kde.org/trunk5/en/kde-workspace/kmenuedit/quickstart.html 

Easier to theme than XFCE? It depends on your definition of "easier", I find it not particularly difficult if that helps. :)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 29, 2019, 02:02:50 AM

Also, is KDE easier to manage for appearance setting. icons and "theme-ing" than XFCE?
I always had some trouble going from one config page to another for basically the "looks" of the DE.

And side question, do you have to re-program your Lite "softwares" for KDE? :-S

Piece of cake to theme, there's even a button to click on to 'download more themes'. Click and install for our target audience :)
System Settings aka Control Center has everything you need to control your pc, a one stop shop that I've always appreciated and eliminates the need for apps like Lite Sounds, Lite User Manager etc. Keeps the main Menu clean to!
Lite Softwares - there's always some recoding to do each Series as dependencies and environments evolve.

System Settings:

(https://i.imgur.com/0Shxghc.gif)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: robinc on December 30, 2019, 02:21:30 AM
Just had a quick look at the state of KDE Plasma - still as horrible as ever.

If LL is going down this route I'll say goodbye now.

Thanks, but no thanks  :( :( :(
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Artim on December 30, 2019, 04:07:01 AM
One of the reasons a lot of us prefer Xfce is because of it's "slow" development.  There have been no huge, major, sudden changes to the Xfce desktop that are so severe you can hardly recognize it, as has been the case with both Gnome and KDE.  While the Big Guys have lots of great features and stuff, their rapid development inevitably leads to bugs, regressions, and sudden incompatibility with some software.  Give me slow and steady any day.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: robinc on December 30, 2019, 07:51:13 AM
One of the reasons a lot of us prefer Xfce is because of it's "slow" development.  There have been no huge, major, sudden changes to the Xfce desktop that are so severe you can hardly recognize it, as has been the case with both Gnome and KDE.  While the Big Guys have lots of great features and stuff, their rapid development inevitably leads to bugs, regressions, and sudden incompatibility with some software.  Give me slow and steady any day.
The only horrids coming down the wire for XFCE are in the full move to GTK3 - so no more simple config files to tweak xfce - now it's all .css - YUK!!!

Try out MX-19 if you want to see the future for XFCE - most of it is pretty OK, and indeed on the surface little has changed - but I really really hate drop shadow text on the desktop and whilst it is easy to remove in XFCE now, in 4.14 it isn't quite so simple.

Between now and 18.04 expiry date there's a few years so maybe something else will pop out of the woodwork  ;)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: torreydale on December 30, 2019, 12:06:08 PM
Quote
One of the reasons a lot of us prefer Xfce is because of it's "slow" development. 

I don't prefer Xfce because of its slow development.  I prefer Linux Lite and it happened to be using Xfce.  The people I've helped move to Linux via Linux Lite don't give a hoot, either.  They just want something that works, is fast, and looks good.  I think we need to trust the founder of Linux Lite on any changes keeping in step with the distro being friendly to the new Linux convert.  He's already stated in this thread that if KDE is used in the future, it will be part of an LTS (Long Term Support) build. 

I personally think Linux Lite has done a fantastic job with Xfce, and it looks great.  But it still looks closer to Windows XP or Windows 2000 than Windows 10.  And for some newbies, that's a step back.  To have a modern look, more functionality, and still be lighter weight than even Xfce...it would be foolish to ignore the possibilities, and that is what Jerry is investigating.

Take a chill pill and let him do his thing.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 30, 2019, 12:20:15 PM
Thanks torreydale, once again you've absolutely nailed my position here.

This is going to be a bloody tough decision here, one that deserves a wide, open and varied collection of opinions. Trust that whatever is decided upon in 2 years, it is purely for our target audience. In all facets of this topic, time is on our side.

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: m654321 on December 30, 2019, 12:36:17 PM
Quote
One of the reasons a lot of us prefer Xfce is because of it's "slow" development. 

I don't prefer Xfce because of it's slow development.  I prefer Linux Lite and it happened to be using Xfce.  The people I've helped move to Linux via Linux Lite don't give a hoot, either.  They just want something that works, is fast, and looks good ...


My thoughts entirely torreydale - very well done for articulating this so well
8)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: firenice03 on December 30, 2019, 01:19:36 PM
Quote
One of the reasons a lot of us prefer Xfce is because of it's "slow" development. 

I don't prefer Xfce because of its slow development.  I prefer Linux Lite and it happened to be using Xfce.  The people I've helped move to Linux via Linux Lite don't give a hoot, either.  They just want something that works, is fast, and looks good.  I think we need to trust the founder of Linux Lite on any changes keeping in step with the distro being friendly to the new Linux convert.  He's already stated in this thread that if KDE is used in the future, it will be part of an LTS (Long Term Support) build. 

I personally think Linux Lite has done a fantastic job with Xfce, and it looks great.  But it still looks closer to Windows XP or Windows 2000 than Windows 10.  And for some newbies, that's a step back.  To have a modern look, more functionality, and still be lighter weight than even Xfce...it would be foolish to ignore the possibilities, and that is what Jerry is investigating.

Take a chill pill and let him do his thing.

I would second this :)

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 30, 2019, 01:23:31 PM
You know my opinion in this matter. You did not 'earn' Plasma, @Jerry. Infact, definitive majority of distros did not. That is why this entire situation is such a pitfall.

Yes, I do not give a hoot, but this is a double-edged sword.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Artim on December 30, 2019, 06:27:51 PM
I agree, for it's purpose, Jerry has done an awesome job and will continue to do so no matter which desktop LL uses.

I'm one of those (rare?) users who doesn't want a desktop that looks or behaves in any way like Windows.  I want mine as different from Windows as it can possibly get.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 31, 2019, 01:55:31 AM
Quote
I want mine as different from Windows as it can possibly get.
You have GNOME. By the way, watch out what you wish for. Windows is not stupid, infact, it is not stupid at all.

@Jerry, I do not know you personally perhaps even at all, but it appears to me you have gone 'insane' over KDE and Plasma, literally overnight. It is a very disturbing observation. I would ask you to reevaluate your posts in this thread and compare them versus your common earlier demeanor on this forum. Sudden changes rarely lead up to serene ends.

I see how you have become slightly obsessed with modern KDE and it appears to me that embracing of KDE desktop environment by the Linux Lite, is inevitable, only a matter of time. I may not even be as much against the very KDE, but I may be against the 'madness' of how the ongoing change occurs. The sudden switch of KDE Plasma to an ultra-fast beyond-XFCE lightweight desktop environment, from the polar opposite point of spectrum it had inhabited literally a while ago, is unhealthy just by itself.

I do not think Linux Lite is going to be a 'spiritually' clear place for the time approaching, which is why I consider myself moving to something else, with more 'sane' background, if I may use the metaphor.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: m654321 on December 31, 2019, 02:14:03 AM
The original aims of LL were:
- an easy-to-use Linux OS, especially for those migrating from Microsoft Windows, and also for those new to Linux generally
- lite (lightweight), fast & free

Of course the name Linux Lite, in itself, conveys lightness and speed. So far LL has adhered to the above aims, though I've found that the LL4 series is beginning to lose its hold on 'lite-ness' & speed for older hardware. I see two main reasons for this:

1. LL being built on an Ubuntu base, where 32-bit versions have now been discontinued - Debian 10 (and probably Deb11) will continue to use 32bit
2. Use of XFCE, instead of the significantly lighter LXDE 

I'm sure Jerry, you have good reasons for neither using a Debian base, nor LXDE, but I thought I'd just throw my own thoughts into the melting-pot ...


Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 31, 2019, 02:27:54 AM
We're not trying to be the lightest OS in the Universe. We will always be light. The term itself is subjective, but has a clear context here.

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Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 31, 2019, 02:37:12 AM
While I can personally see why you would use XFCE over LXDE or Ubuntu over Debian, with both the necessary benefits and side effects these choices introduce, I would like conclude the danger, primarily dwells in desire.

What do you desire to achieve with your OS right now?
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: torreydale on December 31, 2019, 02:45:11 AM
@MS ,


Take 2 chill pills.  One's not enough for you.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 31, 2019, 02:46:53 AM
@MS ,


Take 2 chill pills.  One's not enough for you.
Yes, forgive me for being negative in this place, Jerry is fully right to vindicate me for that, somehow, sometime.

EDIT:

For the 'chill pill', I heard L-theanine is a pretty good popular fix, even though I have never tried it in a purified pharmaceutical form, albeit people drinking a lot of tea, particularly the green tea, may be familiar with the effect it brings.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 31, 2019, 02:48:01 AM
I have no desires. That requires ego, and I have none connected to this OS. Read the top of our Features page for our mission statement.

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 31, 2019, 02:52:42 AM
Well then, apparently it is natural evolution of the state of things. Wish it was less catastrophic-like in terms of impact and more organic, if to make such biological comparison. Either how, I am certain Linux Lite is going to remain a unique OS.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: TMG1961 on December 31, 2019, 03:45:58 AM
I go with torreydale on this one. I want a OS that works and i dont play around with it and make huge changes. I just use it out of the box.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: m654321 on December 31, 2019, 05:57:20 AM
I go with torreydale on this one. I want a OS that works and i dont play around with it and make huge changes. I just use it out of the box.

Exactly. Most of us on this forum like LL as we want something that just works, easy-to-use, pure & simple without having to "fiddle around".
Referring back to my comments on reply #80: Debian is a bit more complicated than Ubuntu; LXDE not as easily configurable as XFCE - too much fiddling around with Debian & LXDE !
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on December 31, 2019, 08:35:06 AM
I go with torreydale on this one. I want a OS that works and i dont play around with it and make huge changes. I just use it out of the box.

Exactly. Most of us on this forum like LL as we want something that just works, easy-to-use, pure & simple without having to "fiddle around".

I think whichever DE LL uses it's going to behave just as good as it does with XFCE; ready to be used out of the box. After all, is not the DE but the design of the OS which makes it work the way it does. I tried quite a few different xfce-distros and not all of them are as polished and light as LL.

Quote
Referring back to my comments on reply #80: Debian is a bit more complicated than Ubuntu; LXDE not as easily configurable as XFCE - too much fiddling around with Debian & LXDE !
LL is like that by design; foolproof! You can't fiddle around it or else you could breake it, trust me, I have lol. I find LXDE to be not as customizable nor as functional as XFCE is.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 31, 2019, 08:39:05 AM
Roughly offtopic, but what about LXQT?
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on December 31, 2019, 08:41:57 AM
Roughly offtopic, but what about LXQT?
Not sure if you are trolling or serious. Stay on topic people.

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: MS on December 31, 2019, 08:46:02 AM
Roughly offtopic, but what about LXQT?
Not sure if you are trolling or serious. Stay on topic people.

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk
You would never want to hear someone comment on your OS with a statement such as: are you trolling or serious?

Wait...

Umm... KDE?

Uh oh...
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: firenice03 on December 31, 2019, 11:05:43 PM
@Jerry may be onto something  ;D ;D


https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/10/23/bold-prediction-kde-will-steal-the-lightweight-linux-desktop-crown-in-2020/#3e76065a26d2 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/10/23/bold-prediction-kde-will-steal-the-lightweight-linux-desktop-crown-in-2020/#3e76065a26d2)

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: TheDead on January 01, 2020, 03:06:48 AM
First off,  thanks to Jerry for that video showing the gazillion KDE settings, which was long, and almost scary, but cool. Like "The Arrival" ;)

I think of myself as open minded person and don't cling to anything blindly but this discussion touches on "The Great DE Warz"...
Some parts of this thread almost sound like the Beta/VHS, Nintendo/Sega then PlayStation/Xbox days.
The phenomena of having adopted one "brand" that automatically transforms a user/gamer into a fanboy/fanperson of the the said brand.

If any DE can be configured easily for a specific purpose and layout, is stable and lightweight... it deserves attention.
Will it become standard? Maybe. Thing I'm sure, if it's not up to par for everything achieved in Linux Lite up to now, it will stay a pet project a while longer and/or die as a DE highschool fling.

XFCE is great and really versatile, like I mentioned before, Whiskers sold me to it, heck I even use Mint XFCE+Whiskers sometimes (can't stand Cinnamon/Mate/Gnome since I always "get stuck" somewhere). But, I'm not "sold" to anything. Even Microsoft did some cool stuff... but also horrible, Horrible, nightmare-ish stuff that haunt the collective mind to this day... Hi Bob!

Personally I had an eye for KDE for some time. First raised eye brow was trying the different DE with Porteus 4 and found that KDE was lighter than Mate and Gnome, and thats been sometime now. They seem to have continued in this path and completely understand the excitement of Jerry for it.
But MS, don't confuse excitement as being "disturbing". I don't have a Psych Doctorate (... or maybe I do, cuz, let's be mysterious in this Internet anonymity ;) ).
I'm quite certain that Jerry is not "insane" or "obsessed" just by trying out different things. Or... he's just a brain with eyeballs floating in a glass jar in a lab somewhere, no one really knows, since he probably never sleeps. :-D

(Oh noes, here it comes, another "car" analogy...)
I know quite a lot of people, including myself that would be exited and find it cool to drive a, I dunno, a BMW760 (or any other other expensive car of your choice representing KDE). Would I buy one, no, too much resources needed. ;)
But... what if it costs the same as your standard sedan (being XFCE) and took the same amount of gas to run? ... Things that make you go hummm!Pretty sure people would think twice aboot keeping the standard familly sedan.
Edit: 'cuz I'm lazy
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: robinc on January 01, 2020, 05:56:06 AM
My cats had whiskers
and they both liked Whiskas.
But when I see Whisker I paws
and then I replace it
with XFCE menu
which also  has whiskers - of course!
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Teddy on January 02, 2020, 01:53:08 AM
Why I'm in favour of a future with KDE.

- It is Windows like
- Massive development team
- Detailed, almost to a point of overdoing it, configurability
- Stunning themes
- Mobile phone management with KDE Connect
- Continuously improving performance
- Konsole, has to be one of the best ootb Terminals available


Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk
Everything here I agree on and am (of course) biased towards KDE. Of course I'm no stranger to other DEs either (using MATE Linux Mint on another machine for example) and I have no problem with XFCE at all. Just don't use GNOME whatever you do  ;D !

That disclaimer aside, I am going to go out on a limb and say that it would NOT be a good idea to change LL to KDE for the benefit of the community and your target userbase. I mean don't get me wrong, better development pace, good features are great assets to have, but do those things really warrant the risk of potentially alienating a good chunk of your userbase? I may like the change, and will welcome it if you decide so but I must disclose myself as someone who isn't the target demographic of LL generally speaking. We gained many LL users from the support closures of Windows XP/Vista and probably will receive many former Windows 7 users when support ends for it on 2020-01-14. Those people most likely appreciate the no-nonsense feel and arrangement of XFCE, while KDE can be overwhelming to someone completely brand new (it certainly was to me until after a month or so back during the KDE4 days). Even after all this time I still don't understand what the purpose of the 'Activities' feature that KDE has had for a long time. Never used it and I feel that the virtual desktops do the same thing anyway. The KDE settings and widgets panel alone can literally scare someone away from changing anything because of how detailed it is. Those already used to XFCE will want to stay with it most likely as well (my grandparents who use LL are a good example of this, they came from Windows XP).

In my mind, I think of Linux Lite as a 'Function over Form' style of distro, where productivity/usability/ease of use are at the foreground of priorities and the looks/theme/eye candy supplement the productivity/usability. KDE is all about eye candy and is a tinkerer's dream. As an example: I can only think of KDE Connect as a gimmick in many ways: Notifications that sync with a smartphone, ability to use smartphone as a touchpad & remotely controlling multimedia with a smartphone. Yes these features are nice but are they essential? The cool thing about KDE Connect though is sending and receiving files wireless which is very helpful and the only non gimmick service that KDE Connect provides. XFCE fits that 'Function over Form' mission better for LL I think.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Artim on January 02, 2020, 02:39:10 AM
@Teddy nailed it.  My last flirtation with KDE, admittedly years ago now, was very confusing.  I was like, "What is all this stuff and what does it do?  Can it be undone if I change something and don't like it?  It's very busy and so full of unfamiliar stuff that I found it overwhelming.

One of the coolest things Linux Lite has done with the Xfce desktop is change the names of apps to reflect their function.  A newbie wouldn't know that Thunar is the file manager, for example, so it's not called Thunar in Linux Lite.   Do that for a KDE desktop and you'll be onto something awesome for the (hopefully distant) future.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: m654321 on January 02, 2020, 03:18:12 AM
@Teddy nailed it.  My last flirtation with KDE, admittedly years ago now, was very confusing.  I was like, "What is all this stuff and what does it do?  Can it be undone if I change something and don't like it?  It's very busy and so full of unfamiliar stuff that I found it overwhelming.

It was my experience too, with KDE, three or four years ago. A few times I messed up with KDE, couldn't get out of it, and in the end got so frustrated I finally ditched it.  At the time, it seemed that the only folk that used KDE were the linux-savvy; not something for novices ...

That said, maybe Jerry can simplify KDE: cut out all the superfluous stuff, including the eye-candy, and spin something equally magical out of it, as he has done with LL & XFCE - perhaps best just to wait and see ...


 
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: amigo on January 02, 2020, 05:19:55 AM
Jerry, thank you for taking LL to where it is today.
I'm 74, so do me a favor. Stay with xfce for a few more years. After I'm gone, do what you want.
Amigo......


Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: m654321 on January 02, 2020, 06:06:41 AM

Jerry, thank you for taking LL to where it is today.
I'm 74, so do me a favor. Stay with xfce for a few more years. After I'm gone, do what you want.
Amigo......

Amigo, your plea strikes a chord ...

In a world that's constantly changing in the name of 'progress', maybe it's reassuring to know that some things remain the same, especially when they do their job perfectly: "If it ain't broke why fix it?" 

To be perfectly honest, right now, I prefer to sit on the fence for KDE vs XFCE debate ...

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: torreydale on January 02, 2020, 10:32:21 AM
I'd like to reiterate what Jerry stated earlier.  It seems like some of us are making anecdotal history affect how we feel about this issue.

Antergos doesn't exist anymore.  Github is now owned by Microsoft.  Those are two recent examples of how the past does not equal the future.  My guess is the majority of all users do most of their computing via a browser and they occasionally access a file manager.  Switching desktop environments isn't going to rock the world of grandma or grandpa as long as the browser icon is still in the bottom left, next to the file manager icon and the Menu button.  That can be accomplished in KDE.  So relax.

There would likely be a developmental version of Linux Lite KDE so that we in the forum can test it out and report issues.  A desktop environment change for a production version of Linux Lite isn't even in the cards before June 2022.  That is over two years from now.  And that is the earliest this would happen, if it happens at all.

We should stop being so kneejerk about this and let Jerry do his thing.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on January 02, 2020, 07:31:37 PM
I'd like to reiterate what Jerry stated earlier.  It seems like some of us are making anecdotal history affect how we feel about this issue.

Antergos doesn't exist anymore.  Github is now owned by Microsoft.  Those are two recent examples of how the past does not equal the future.  My guess is the majority of all users do most of their computing via a browser and they occasionally access a file manager.  Switching desktop environments isn't going to rock the world of grandma or grandpa as long as the browser icon is still in the bottom left, next to the file manager icon and the Menu button.  That can be accomplished in KDE.  So relax.

There would likely be a developmental version of Linux Lite KDE so that we in the forum can test it out and report issues.  A desktop environment change for a production version of Linux Lite isn't even in the cards before June 2022.  That is over two years from now.  And that is the earliest this would happen, if it happens at all.

We should stop being so kneejerk about this and let Jerry do his thing.

Once again you've absolutely nailed everything, it's like our minds have melded into one :)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on January 02, 2020, 07:35:37 PM

There would likely be a developmental version of Linux Lite KDE so that we in the forum can test it out and report issues.  A desktop environment change for a production version of Linux Lite isn't even in the cards before June 2022.  That is over two years from now.  And that is the earliest this would happen, if it happens at all.


I would definitely throw out a dev edition on any drastic change to LL, including a change in DE. To release suddenly a LL KDE without any prior warning or consultation, well, it's simply unthinkable for me. To reiterate, this thread is asking for opinions on such a switch. A thread title does not imply an impending move to KDE. It simply asks the question...what if?
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Teddy on January 03, 2020, 12:25:20 AM

I would definitely throw out a dev edition on any drastic change to LL, including a change in DE. To release suddenly a LL KDE without any prior warning or consultation, well, it's simply unthinkable for me. To reiterate, this thread is asking for opinions on such a switch. A thread title does not imply an impending move to KDE. It simply asks the question...what if?

It's always fun to experiment  :) . If a test version comes about I will help. KDE with LL is a galvanising idea to me.

P.S. Forgive me if my first couple sentences of my last post appeared to be a bit inimical, but then again, this is one of those 'opening a can of worms' kind of topics.

I ... will welcome it if you decide so ...
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on January 05, 2020, 11:40:48 AM
A very good article/tutorial on KDE's plasma desktop; how tos, tips and tricks. I learnt a lot from it http://www.linux-magazine.com/Issues/2019/218/Tutorial-Plasma

:)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on January 14, 2020, 09:06:11 AM
Some excellent views on both sides of the table here. Thank you to everyone who offered information here, this community is wonderful! I have a lot to think about.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: TheDead on January 14, 2020, 10:22:32 AM
And KDE closer to the top in alphebetical order than XFCE! ;)

Let the Flame Warz... begin! ;)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Artim on January 14, 2020, 06:39:54 PM
Since Xfce went to GTK3 (which is a lot "heavier" than GTK2) and KDE went to Plasma 5 (much lighter than before), their resource consumption is comparable!  Gnome is still a fat resource hog though.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: robinc on January 16, 2020, 01:04:51 AM
One frinstance of issues with Plasma is digikam.

Certainly from 18.04 and up to and including 'buntu 19.10 there's a qt library clash which means the digikam will not open an image for editing after opening one previously.

This is purely down to the frozen side of Debian/Ubuntu development and release process. So that's effectively 2 years of dysfunction.

Now I appreciate that for many that's a "who cares" moment, but actually digikam is a very widely used bit of software - and yes there are alternatives and no I don't need to know about them thank you.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: trinidad on January 16, 2020, 07:08:53 AM
Advertised as up to date with QT5. Should be fine on KDE.

https://www.digikam.org/news/2019-02-10-6.0.0_release_announcement/

TC
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on January 19, 2020, 07:00:51 PM
https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2020/01/xfce-4-16-client-side-decoration

Quote
Xfce 4.16 is switching to GTK header bars, but they’re more commonly referred to as client side decoration (CSD) as window borders are rendered client side (GTK), not by the window manager.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: TheDead on January 21, 2020, 11:04:14 AM
Geeting eager to compare an official "Made by Jerry" Linux Lite in KDE Vs XFCE! ;)

Go Jerry Go! .
Edit : wording
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on January 21, 2020, 12:11:53 PM
I had my wife and her mother try KDE's plasma desktop, they don't use Linux but windows, they told me they found it easy to use and find stuff, that it looks very much like Windows so opening programs and files wasn't difficult at all, I also had them try XFCE, their experience was quite the opposite; they told me they found it more diffcult than they did with plasma to do the same things; look for and find stuff as well as opening files and programs. I frankly don't get the why but this is what they told me, maybe it's because I'm so used to XFCE that I think it's as easy to use as plasma, but it might not be the case for other people, well, it certainly wasn't for both my wife and her mother.  Since LL's been created with Windows users in mind looking to make the switch to Linux or who are already in that process and at least from the results I got in this test I did, with a very tiny sample though but still a sample - planning to do it with a larger one - and more importantly from LL's target audience and according to jerry's own words
Quote
Trust that whatever is decided upon in 2 years, it is purely for our target audience.
I think switching to KDE's plasma desktop may prove to be the right move.
I've been using the plasma desktop for like a month or so and so far I have to say that it's been a pleasant experience, I said in other opportunities how I like awesome window manager because it's keyboard driven, well, turns out so is plasma; every action you can think of  can be configured to be triggered from a key combo, yes, every action; launch/close programs; minimize/maximize, move/resize, switch/alternate windows and many more options. I love XFCE but Plasma's a great DE too and now that's not such a resource hog anymore - at least for now - and quoting jerry's words again
Quote
With so many developers onboard and it getting lighter by the day, with high configuration, it would be criminal to ignore it.
having a LL+Plasma DE might be for the best. :)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on January 21, 2020, 01:29:42 PM
@Moltke it's good to get some 'wife and mother' feedback. Thank you :)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Artim on January 21, 2020, 06:18:17 PM
And if KDE continues to trend lighter in many respects than Xfce, I'd support it too.  It's a hard balance between "newbie friendly" and "resource hungry."
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on January 21, 2020, 07:53:50 PM
@Moltke it's good to get some 'wife and mother' feedback. Thank you :)

No problem @Jerry Honestly, it happened by chance ;D it wasn't like I planned to do that, it just happened; I was using the laptop where I've been playing with KDE from a USB in persistent mode - and yes, it runs pretty smooth - and they were there like "what are you playing with now? another Linux?" I told them to give it a try and tell me what they thought.

Like I said in that post, I've been using plasma for a month or so, comparing performance against XFCE, by the way, in this same laptop I've installed XFCE too and while kde boots at 340-360mb xfce boots at 260-300mb, still a bit lighter than plasma but not for much. Resource usage is about the same in both when running a browser with one tab open - haven't really checked with more than one -, file manager and terminal; around 800mb in kde and around the same in xfce. I asked you a while back when you first started this thread how you compared xfwm4 against kwin regarding performance and you told me it was still early days but that at that moment you didn't see much of a difference, which I agreed too by then, but now I can say that kwin seems to outperform xfwm4 and here's why:
I've looked into it and still can't understand exactly whether that's the case or not but it seems that xfwm4 uses xrender and doesnt support opengl while kwin uses both opengl and xrender being the former the default which IMHO offers a better graphics performance since it uses hardware accelaration, well at least thats how I understand it, correct me if Im wrong please. Xfwm4 does what it does really good, it's never failed to me but it doesnt have as many features as kwin when it comes to manage windows; kwin offers plenty of options to configure the windows to behave the way you want them to, that being said, I cant really say whether thats a very good thing or not because I havent done anything in that regard except for a few changes here and there like windows' border size which unlike xfwm4 is not governed by the theme but by kwin itself, apart from that I'm still using most of the defaults.

Dolphin is a great file manager, I don't think or can't say its better than thunar since it doesn't support root mode which is disabled by default and I use that quite a lot, then again, I can do the same things from the terminal only that it feels more confortable using a GUI. Another feature thunar has that dolphin doesn't is the ability to create custom actions which I also use a lot too, however, one could install some plugins that extend their capabilities, apart from that it works really good and havent had any issues with it so far.

Konsole is a great terminal but I do prefer xfce's; its easier to use and customize, at least from a newbie point of view I think and honestly for me too.

Regarding the panel I have mixed feelings, I like that it comes with useful widgets by default unlike xfce's where you have to add them by yourself, I'm talking about things like network, volume control, clipboard manager, keyboard switcher/settings widgets but apart from that, I don't see any advantage over xfce's.

Whisker menu is good but KDE's is better, yeah; you can search, find and open anything in your pc from it; browser bookmarks, files, directories, software, anything. You can't do that in whisker.   

I won't talk about the looks because that is a whole different subject and in my opinion it's kind of irrelevant; one likes what one likes and not everyone likes what the rest do. Besides, LL has proven that xfce can look really nice and beautiful :)

Well, I just wanted to share a bit of my experience while using plasma so far and will keep on doing it when I see fit. Hope others may find it of any help when considering a probable LL move to using  plasma as the default DE.


 
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: trinidad on January 22, 2020, 10:23:37 AM
"Dolphin is a great file manager, I don't think or can't say its better than thunar since it doesn't support root mode which is disabled by default and I use that quite a lot, then again, I can do the same things from the terminal only that it feels more confortable using a GUI."

Try this from a root terminal: # QT_QPA_PLATFORM=x11 dolphin
Should open dolphin as root under x11. If it errors run a nested Xserver set a display number i/e 8 and open it there with the same command, but prefixed with: DISPLAY=8

The days of running graphical applications from root are ending. Too many bugs and too much security risk.  QT5 (newest KDE) runs on Xwayland or wayland thus the lack of root graphical application access. The security risk of the xinput utility (which has not been in Debian default installs since Deb 7, but is still in default Ubuntu and all XFCE) is reason enough to not use Xorg not to mention many patches in C code thrown about in the server source that are not coded precisely enough to be considered stable or secure. Of course xinput tools are not transparent under wayland and neither is the weak Xserver code.

TC 
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on January 22, 2020, 02:36:03 PM
"Dolphin is a great file manager, I don't think or can't say its better than thunar since it doesn't support root mode which is disabled by default and I use that quite a lot, then again, I can do the same things from the terminal only that it feels more confortable using a GUI."

Try this from a root terminal: # QT_QPA_PLATFORM=x11 dolphin
Should open dolphin as root under x11. If it errors run a nested Xserver set a display number i/e 8 and open it there with the same command, but prefixed with: DISPLAY=8

The days of running graphical applications from root are ending. Too many bugs and too much security risk.  QT5 (newest KDE) runs on Xwayland or wayland thus the lack of root graphical application access. The security risk of the xinput utility (which has not been in Debian default installs since Deb 7, but is still in default Ubuntu and all XFCE) is reason enough to not use Xorg not to mention many patches in C code thrown about in the server source that are not coded precisely enough to be considered stable or secure. Of course xinput tools are not transparent under wayland and neither is the weak Xserver code.

TC

Thanks for the suggestion @trinidad  but it didnt work, got this error message
Code: [Select]
root[member=7109]Moltke[/member]-pc:/home/moltke# QT_QPA_PLATFORM=x11 dolphin
Executing Dolphin with sudo is not possible due to unfixable security vulnerabilities.
Well, like I said I can do the stuff I do, i.e copy files from or into some directory which I can't as a non-root user via terminal, so it's not like this is a "critical neccesary" feature for me let alone new first time Linux users who may or may not know about running graphical apps as root. I kind of knew that it wouldn't work cause I tried by installing a service that enables root operations within dolphin and that didn't wok either. 
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: trinidad on January 22, 2020, 05:28:51 PM
What system is your KDE on? Redhat, Fedora, Suse, Debian, Mint or Neon? In Debian you can use dconf editor to get Dolphin root, and in Kubuntu LTS root access is already there in Dolphin in red in the side pane. My curiosity got the better of me so I fired up a VM of Kubuntu LTS today. What a beautiful DE. Many of the interfaces are reminiscent of Windows 10. The update interface in Discover is outstanding looking. My interest is piqued now. I gave up completely on Kubuntu at 14.04 but the new interface is outstanding. Personally I only use Debian gnome anymore since Deb 8, so it may take me a while to get used to the KDE interface and QT command chain again. The only system I have sudo installed on is Linux Lite so I forget sometimes that things work a little differently now. Also you can control the graphical backend for applications from Debian user space easier than on some other systems. It may be hard to believe but Debian gnome is the easiest steadiest system I've ever used. Been on it through 8, 9, and 10 now. I actually find a few of the ones called easy to use annoyingly difficult to keep stable. LL is an exception to that rule which is why I install it for new users.

TC
 
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on January 22, 2020, 06:36:50 PM
I created root access in my KDE LL build. Took a few hours of research to get a reliable, working fix.
This is the way it would be implemented for Dolphin & Kwrite:

.desktops: (may have to create folders)
~/.local/share/kservicess5/ServiceMenus/

polkits:
/usr/share/polkit-1/actions

Create a polkit file for Dolphin:

com.ubuntu.pkexec.dolphin.policy

Code: [Select]
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE policyconfig PUBLIC
  "-//freedesktop//DTD PolicyKit Policy Configuration 1.0//EN"
  "http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/PolicyKit/1/policyconfig.dtd">
<policyconfig>
 
  <vendor>Linux Lite</vendor>
  <vendor_url>https://linuxliteos.com/</vendor_url>
 
  <action id="com.ubuntu.pkexec.dolphin">
    <message>Authentication is required to run Dolphin</message>
    <icon_name>window-close</icon_name>
    <defaults>
      <allow_any>auth_admin</allow_any>
      <allow_inactive>auth_admin</allow_inactive>
      <allow_active>auth_admin</allow_active>
    </defaults>
    <annotate key="org.freedesktop.policykit.exec.path">/usr/bin/dolphin</annotate>
    <annotate key="org.freedesktop.policykit.exec.allow_gui">true</annotate>
  </action>

</policyconfig>

.desktop for Dolphin:

dolphin-root.desktop

Code: [Select]
[Desktop Action root]
Exec=pkexec dolphin
Icon=window-close
Name=Open as Admin

[Desktop Entry]
Actions=root
Icon=window-close
MimeType=inode/directory
ServiceTypes=KonqPopupMenu/Plugin
Type=Service
X-KDE-Priority=TopLevel
X-KDE-StartupNotify=false

For Kwrite, rinse and repeat, just change where obvious.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on January 22, 2020, 07:41:11 PM
What system is your KDE on?
 

Debian Buster. I created a Live USB with rufus which now has the option to create Live USBs with persistent mode in a very easy way, yes, easier than mkusb ( I really wish it was ported to Linux but the depv has already said he won't :(  ) I did that since I'm running it in a laptop with no HDD.  I installed KDE and who knows, maybe that's why it doesn't work. 

Quote
I created root access in my KDE LL build. Took a few hours of research to get a reliable, working fix.

Very nice! :) but I don't think it'll work for me here.
 
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: trinidad on January 23, 2020, 10:36:46 AM
Well my years away from Kubuntu have left me a little rusty, but after running it for a couple days I have some comments.

On the positive side:
1) It is by far the most Windows 10 like Linux distribution I have yet to encounter, in both appearance and function.
2) The desktop is stunning.
3) Konsole, Dolphin, Kate & Discover have wonderful options and functionality. Update is the best I've seen anywhere.

On the negative side:
1) Kubuntu is definitely not a beginner OS, mainly because of too many powerful features. The vast majority of Windows users don't know how to use Windows properly, and they might find Kubuntu's DE just as dizzying as Windows 10 even though it would be familiar. i/e Most Windows users hated Windows 10 over Windows 7 even though 10 was considerably superior in the guts.
2) The help manual alone would require a massive effort to bring up to Linux Lite standards.

My expectations Jerry:
1) The known special qualities of Linux Lite, the way you work, the philosophy of designing a simple fast free system that Windows users can be comfortable with and learn quickly would all come into play with a KDE version of LL. Your effort would make or break the thing. Too many features, too many functions, too complicated of a DE might not match the established LL cachet. I'm sure you would put your spin on KDE Linux Lite, and as far as the future goes KDE will probably prove to be the best choice, and in my opinion it is the most Windows like, but it is your effort and philosophy that puts the mark on Linux Lite and this community, and it is certain that change will always be met with hostility from some quarter deserved or not. Selfishly, I hope you undertake the project, because I think Linux Lite has something to offer KDE, rather than the other way around, something elegantly simple, and something very stable, usable, and above all...  "learnable". (I know it's not a word but it should be these days)

TC
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on January 23, 2020, 09:03:09 PM
@trinidad thanks, I appreciate your write-up. I saw a comment on a LL Youtube video today, "If Jerry does make a KDE spin he should calling Linux Lead" So there will be for a long time, the perception that KDE is heavy. It's a good thing we're not rushing into this. In some preliminary tests, this new Series 5.x XFCE is a lot heavier than in the past, and I mean noticeably. I can't get it to settle below 530mb fresh boot to the Desktop. Worrying.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: TheDead on January 24, 2020, 09:05:27 AM
530MB? Thats about a 40% increase!
O M Geee!
(https://media.tenor.com/images/32eecf4ee7afe57fa8f660bdd46c6823/tenor.gif)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: trinidad on January 24, 2020, 09:40:18 AM
@Jerry The RAM numbers are rising on DEs across the board, but modern hardware is getting bigger too. 4G is the new minimum on old hardware in general. I did notice that loading Kubuntu plasma hit my CPU a lot harder than loading LL, but that could just be the kernel difference. Both RAM use settled in around 400m after loading. My gnome desktops settle pretty close to 1G so 500M is not too bad.

@Moltke Debian 10 does not allow Xauthority and DISPLAY to be passed to a child. I may have given you the wrong backend prefix. (I didn't know you were on Deb 10). Prefix your sudo command with GDK_BACKEND=x11 and maybe you'll have to prefix that with DISPLAY=:0 I don't install sudo on my Deb systems so I'm not sure this will work, but I can just run a root terminal and backend prefix nautilus and get nautilus in root on X. Same with synaptic and any application that requires Xauthority, though I never use it anymore except with SSH.

@TheDead That's how I look getting in and out of my girlfriends Honda.

TC
 
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on January 24, 2020, 12:39:38 PM
TheDead always delivers the dope gifs.

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: tikiti on January 25, 2020, 06:23:20 AM
How has that happened?  KDE on par with Xfce?!  Not long ago I would have thought it impossible.
The main difference is that KDE has a massive, almost inexhaustible supply of developers, where as XFCE have just a handful. I really like KDE and how close it is to Windows and the level of configuration available. Plasma is really nice too.

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

Isn't KDE & Plasma one? It's KDE Plasma right? Or are they 2 seperate DE? I'm confused! https://kde.org/plasma-desktop
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on January 25, 2020, 01:56:35 PM
Isn't KDE & Plasma one? It's KDE Plasma right? Or are they 2 seperate DE? I'm confused! https://kde.org/plasma-desktop

KDE is a community of people who make software including the plasma desktop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE_Plasma_5 (do check the external links, there a few very interesting ones ) which many people refer to as KDE and that's because in the early days it was simply called the KDE desktop where KDE used to stand for Kool Desktop Evironment https://kde.org/announcements/beta1announce.php but that's not the case anymore and the "official" name is plasma desktop, developed by the KDE community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Desktop_Environment_1
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: tikiti on January 26, 2020, 10:35:56 AM
Isn't KDE & Plasma one? It's KDE Plasma right? Or are they 2 seperate DE? I'm confused! https://kde.org/plasma-desktop

KDE is a community of people who make software including the plasma desktop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KDE_Plasma_5 (do check the external links, there a few very interesting ones ) which many people refer to as KDE and that's because in the early days it was simply called the KDE desktop where KDE used to stand for Kool Desktop Evironment https://kde.org/announcements/beta1announce.php but that's not the case anymore and the "official" name is plasma desktop, developed by the KDE community.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K_Desktop_Environment_1

If that's the case then why does Jerry say "I really like KDE" & "Plasma is really nice too." as if they are two seperate Desktop Environment. Tell us Jerry! (https://www.linuxliteos.com/forums/profile/?u=2)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on January 27, 2020, 02:04:28 AM
You have to know the history of KDE to understand that phrasing. Google is your friend :)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: tikiti on January 27, 2020, 03:04:02 AM
You have to know the history of KDE to understand that phrasing. Google is your friend :)

O Great Sir! Would thy be kind enough to share the secret? Would save me some time!  :P
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Jerry on January 27, 2020, 03:53:17 AM
You want me to go over the entire history of KDE for you?

(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/ba/b1/d9/bab1d9a505bd298ccab1c4696429be44--badass-quotes-awesome-quotes.jpg)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: tikiti on January 27, 2020, 08:31:14 AM
You want me to go over the entire history of KDE for you?

(https://i.pinimg.com/236x/ba/b1/d9/bab1d9a505bd298ccab1c4696429be44--badass-quotes-awesome-quotes.jpg)

Entire history isn't needed O Great Sir! A short summary will suffice. I thanketh thou.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: TheDead on January 28, 2020, 10:13:45 AM
Well, I don't think you can find a nicer KDE timeline than this :
https://timeline.kde.org/ (https://timeline.kde.org/)
Happy reading!
Edit : Typos... again... *sob*.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: tikiti on January 29, 2020, 12:17:17 AM
Well, I don't thing you can find a nicer KDE timeline than this :
https://timeline.kde.org/ (https://timeline.kde.org/)
Happy reading!

Thanks! Good doge! ;)
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: trinidad on February 18, 2020, 11:21:03 AM
Just some followup. Well I've been using Kubuntu LTS for a few weeks now, and not to bear any bad news, but generally Linux Lite 4.8 hits the AMD 4core CPU a little harder than Kubuntu does on the same machine. This could be a kernel and/or firmware difference however. LL is on 4,15.0-88 while Kubuntu is on 5.3.0-40. RAM use is relatively comparable though LL spikes higher with some applications, and goes up and down quicker, while Kubuntu stays about the same without any big spikes though averaging a little higher. Another default application included with Kubuntu worth mentioning as being user friendly for beginners/Windows refugees is vaults, a slick little file encryption tool. All in all I'd have to say that Kubuntu has a very polished DE, that in my opinion is currently the most Windows 10 like Linux I have used.

TC   
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: az2020 on February 18, 2020, 12:49:58 PM
I've always liked KDE because it (the look/feel) reminds me of OS/2 (which I was a big fan of). KDE used to be synonymous with "large." But, I played with it a year ago, and again recently. It's surprisingly small, in the MX Linux, Linux Lite, Lubuntu territory. KDE has a lot of settings that can be changed. I found that turning off the eye-candy animations and stuff puts it down in the same realm as these distros. (With that stuff enabled, it's not "large.").

I've been wanting to make Neon KDE my desktop for awhile, or Kubuntu. One thing that turned me off a little was Neon forces you to save your wifi password in a "vault" (or something). I already use Keypass. I felt uncomfortable setting up yet another tool like that, and having another passphrase, etc. There was no way I could see to opt out. That was Neon. I don't think experience that with Kubuntu. But, I've forgotten.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on February 22, 2020, 07:32:28 PM
I'm sold to KDE's plasma desktop! I've been using it for over 2 months or so and so far it's been a pleasant experience. I've used XFCE from the day 1 I started using Linux, but I have to say that plasma is such a great DE. I logged to XFCE few days ago and realized how much clicking I do in comparison with plasma where I barely use the mouse since I've configure it in a way that I can do pretty much everything wthout it. I'm not saying I'm leaving xfce for good since I like it being simple and smart but truth is that with plasma my wokflow's improved a lot. Regarding software I think there's really not much difference since I'm using pretty much the same ones I use in xfce; chromium, clementine, vlc, claws-mail and haven't noticed any boost in performance.
Specific KDE vs XFCE4 software, well that's really a total different story.
dolphin vs thunar; I think both are great file managers and both do have some unique features to make life much easier.
panels; I think plasma wins here; windows' buttons place and behave more "cleanly", maybe that's not the right word but can't think of any other to better describe it.
menu; again, I think plasma wins here: plasma menu search features are way far much more advanced than those of xfce which are quite limited to say the least.
konsole vs xfce4-terminal; this is just like dolphin vs thunar, they both are great tools with unique features to help users get the job done efficienly. However, I do find xfce's to be more friendly when it comes to set it up, at least for the first use; even if users have never used a terminal they'll find it easy to configure, I think.
kwin vs xfwm4; again, plasma wins here: kwin offers much more control over windows, i.e configure the keyboard to do whatever you can think of; raise, hide, switch between, open, close and more. Also, it appears to improve graphics performance by using opengl while xfwm4 uses xrender.

Well, I just wanted to share some of my experience so far with plasma. IMHO, I think KDE's plama desktop will be such a great addition to Linux Lite and will make it even better; more appealing to its target audience being more windows-like UI as well as to others.  Also, If I may say so, will make LL a big contender in the distro universe, which it is already; top 20 ALWAYS at distrowatch, which isn't a small thing when you think how others go up and down week after week while LL remains there among the top 20 distros, not that it matters that much but then, let's all be honest, it kind of does. :)
   
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: az2020 on February 22, 2020, 08:09:46 PM
IMHO, I think KDE's plama desktop will be such a great addition to Linux Lite and will make it even better; more appealing to its target audience being more windows-like UI as well as to others.   

I agree. I just switched from MX Linux 18.3 to Kubuntu 19.10. (I just got a couple new laptops and couldn't get MX 19 or 19.1 to install on them. I didn't work at it too much since I was planning to hop to something else anyway. I was planning to use Peppermint for awhile. But, their lead author/creator passed away in January, and they're struggling to fill those shoes. So, I thought I'd try KDE for awhile. I've always wanted to. Longer than Peppermint.).

It's really surprising how small KDE's memory usage is. Especially if you turn off the animations in "appearance." It's down around Linux Lite, Lubuntu. (It's based on qt, like Lubuntu's desktop).

I'm not in love with the start menu. It feels a little clunky the way you have to click menu items to drill deeper. I like how Linux Lite (and MX, other Xfce desktops) expand as you hover over a menu item.). It feels tedious that way. It has a lot of settings which could also feel tedious at first. But, now it's nice to have all that. It's very well organized.

It sounds like the is a rebellion among Xfce's fans. I guess Xfce is making some changes they don't like. So, that would be good to have a choice with Linux Lite. That might appeal to people. (I don't know how Jerry does it all.).

Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on February 23, 2020, 07:05:29 AM
Quote
It's really surprising how small KDE's memory usage is. Especially if you turn off the animations in "appearance." It's down around Linux Lite, Lubuntu. (It's based on qt, like Lubuntu's desktop).

Yes, it wasn't always like that though. I remember trying KDE in the past and it was quite a heavy desktop using a large amount of resources, now they've made a great job.

Quote
I'm not in love with the start menu. It feels a little clunky the way you have to click menu items to drill deeper. I like how Linux Lite (and MX, other Xfce desktops) expand as you hover over a menu item.). It feels tedious that way. It has a lot of settings which could also feel tedious at first. But, now it's nice to have all that. It's very well organized.

You don't have to click, at all. Use arrow keys + Alt to navigate the menu and/or click on super/win key and start typing the name of the program you're looking for, Also, you could just click on the desktop or press Alt+Space keys and start typing, krunner, which I forgot to mention before (how could I), will list every single possible  match from local files to your browser bookmarks in a drop-down menu fashion for your query. This is by far the best feature/tool any desktop could ever dream having, and KDE does!

Quote
It sounds like the is a rebellion among Xfce's fans. I guess Xfce is making some changes they don't like. So, that would be good to have a choice with Linux Lite. That might appeal to people. (I don't know how Jerry does it all.)

I don't think it 's anything like that, many people will still use XFCE since it is a great desktop, personally, the main reason I'm feeling more and more attracted to KDE is the fact that I don't have to use the mouse for almost everything like I do in xfce, I only use it when a certain action can't be done via keyboard,  otherwise I key my way around it :) In fairness, xfce is easier to set up and use in just a matter of minutes while in KDE you have to spend a fair amount of time learning what does what before it works the way you want it to. I'm using KDE on Debian Buster, I installed Buster via a netinst.iso, then installed KDE and apps on it.

 
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: az2020 on February 23, 2020, 10:14:13 AM
One thing I'm not liking is KDE "wallet." Every time I boot, kwallet asks me for a password just to connect to my own wifi from my own computer (which I logged into with my own username and password). That doesn't seem well thought out. :) I've got a feeling it serves a very good purpose and in the future we're all going to be using wallets. But, right now, I'm not liking it.

I setup my old laptop to seed torrents 24x7, and hold less-used files (a NAS device). I configured NFS (I started with samba, but it seemed slow transferring files. I read NFS is faster. It does seem to be.). It works perfectly when I mount the share from KDE's command line. But, when I configure fstab to mount at boot, it fails. I think because the system won't start the wifi until the desktop appears and kwallet asks for its password.

I've asked on the Kubuntu forum for help with this. It's not the end of the world. I can use the command-line mount. But, something about kwallet seems more than I'd like to get into.

Another problem I'm encountering is that the shutdown takes 3-5 minutes unless I open a terminal window and unmount the NFS share before shutting down. I read somewhere that this can be because KDE (or systemd?) shuts down the network before unmounting the share. (That's actually what caused me to think about how the network isn't starting until well after the desktop is present. ha. I probably never have realized fstab mounting is failing due to that, if I hadn't read about the possible reason for the shutdown hang.).

This is the first time I've used NFS. I might experience similar difficulty on any distro. I wouldn't blame KDE for all of it. But, the part about delaying network connectivity until after you're into your desktop seems like a problem. [I'll edit this post when I learn more about how to deal with that. Googling about it, I see a lot. But, it's not always clear what is the official answer versus quick/dirty hacks. It's also not clear which hacks are for Plasma 4 or 5. I'm going to wait and see if I can get an answer from someone who knows.]
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: Moltke on February 23, 2020, 06:05:37 PM
Quote
One thing I'm not liking is KDE "wallet." Every time I boot, kwallet asks me for a password just to connect to my own wifi from my own computer (

You can deactivate it in systemsettings.
Title: Re: XFCE vs KDE
Post by: az2020 on February 23, 2020, 07:52:35 PM
Quote
One thing I'm not liking is KDE "wallet." Every time I boot, kwallet asks me for a password just to connect to my own wifi from my own computer (

You can deactivate it in systemsettings.

Thanks(?). Your comment caused me to look deeper and find that option in System Settings->Personalization->Account Details.

However... turning off the wallet causes Kubuntu to prompt for wifi *each* time I boot.  :) All I've done is exchange one annoyance for another. (Plus, all my Google Chrome credentials disappeared. I had no idea I was that "into" the wallet all this time.).

I turned it back on until I can learn more. I don't want to rant too much about it yet. Maybe it's a good thing, and I just don't understand it. I can see how transporting a wallet around with your web-site logins could be nice. It's just the wifi part that's annoying. (Plus, if you log into your session, why supply yet another password to the wallet. That seems overdone.).

But, I could live with that. Maybe I'm just averse to change. I try to keep an open mind. What really strikes me as a real problem is the network connection not being established until long after the desktop appears. You can't automount NFS shares. (Samba might not work either.). I *assume* that's my problem mounting. It could be something else. This is the first time I've used NFS.