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Linux Lite Future

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Re: Linux Lite Future
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2017, 08:52:11 AM »
 

br1anstorm

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Interesting discussion in this thread, especially on the likely demise of 32-bit versions.  The march of tech progress is remorseless, but I'm sure I am not the only person who regrets the fact that so many old(er) computers are discarded so quickly in the quest for faster and more glitzy systems.

I still have a couple of old laptops and a couple of old desktops with modest CPUs (one a non-pae processor) and not a lot of RAM, which originally had WinXP installed.  The shift to Linux has enabled me to keep them in use, and useful.  But the decision by Ubuntu to abandon 32-bit affects Linux Lite, Mint and other derivatives;  and PCLinuxOS has stopped 32-bit too as it requires too much work from their small dev team.

So like newtusmaximus and others, I've been having a look around.  I found MX-16 (the result of AntiX and Mepis convergence).  It's based on Debian, uses the XFCE desktop, is fairly lightweight, and still offers 32-bit in two versions (pae and non-pae) as well as 64-bit.  Installation smooth and straightforward, updating a breeze.  Runs on several of my older machines with no hiccups - wifi works, multimedia is fine, browsing speedy enough.

I'm not about to abandon Lite, or Mint.  But I have to say I am impressed by MX-16.
 


Re: Linux Lite Future
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2017, 09:27:36 AM »
 

newtusmaximus

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br1anstorm, THkans for the info.
I am sure there are other distros around.  The difference her is that LL has an active and successful support forum.  Members, for the most part, are linux newbies and as a result their transition has been made possible by J & the team's philosophy.

My concern is that, because of the diktat of others, LL  broad appeal might be curtailed.

What is unique about LL is their approach,  and the very "audience" the aim to attract/support   are likely to be turned away because of the whim of others.

There is a reason there was a vast following of XP. - It worked, and the hardware needed was modest, reliably built for the most part, and effective.  for example,  I was at a  UK supermarket ATM ( cash machine / "hole in the wall" ) the other day when it had a fault and rebooted.  To my surprise it went through an XP boot procedure!!
Vista, thank heavens, is gone.

Windows 7 is coming to the end of its life. Not sure whether there are any records of what % of installs were 32bit.  Take the point that a fair number of 32 bit might have been habbit, although I seem to remember that there were  64 bit driver issues for some older periphery hardware.

An interesting Info site https://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp   for schools. Linux is gradually gaining hold.





Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 09:58:40 AM by newtusmaximus
2006 - HP DC7700p ultraslim Desktop Intel 6300 cpu  4GB Ram LL3.6 64bit.
2007 - Fujitsu Siemens V3405 Laptop  2 GB Ram LL3.6 32bit. Now 32bit Debian 9 + nonfree.
2006 - Fujitsu Siemens Si1520 Laptop Intel T720 cpu 3GB Ram LL4.6 64bit
2003 - RETIRED Toshiba Satellite Pro A10 1 GB RAM LL2.8 32bit
 

Re: Linux Lite Future
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2017, 09:46:19 AM »
 

trinidad

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"To my surprise it went through an XP boot procedure!!"

The base system MBR bootloader for Windows 7,8 and 10 is still from XP. Technically there's only ever been three, 3.1, 95, and XP.

Also there is a general torch passing going on in Linux concerning 32bit, but as long as there are working 32bit machines there will be Linux 32bit OSs to run on them, though I suspect the focus of such OSs will slowly narrow finally settling on niche user tasks. I think some devs of OSs like Knoppix will stay to the end, and hobbyists (I still have a working i486 Compaq running Dos) will keep 32bit around for a long time to come, and some Windows programs will lag behind the curve until there are 64bit replacements.

The US will soon be starting up its 200 petaflop supercomputer. The march forward in computer technology relentlessly compounds itself. New mathematics causes new mathematics. Consider the last of the Unix mainframe/workstation OSs circa late eighties and early nineties facing the Windows 95 network/PC changeover. The speed of the changes in the last 30 years is mind boggling. People dream things and then build them but in computing things are built that generate new dreams with each innovation. Dreams come true and spawn more dreams. We still build houses and cars about the same and arguments could be made for older building methods making better product but computing is not like that. It exponentially compounds its possibilliity for innovation as it goes forward, so yes the pace is awfully fast. LL will be far better off relieved of the maintainence burden of the 32bit version. It's just the nature of things. 

TC
Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 10:36:36 AM by trinidad
All opinions expressed and all advice given by Trinidad Cruz on this forum are his responsibility alone and do not necessarily reflect the views or methods of the developers of Linux Lite. He is a citizen of the United States where it is acceptable to occasionally be uninformed and inept as long as you pay your taxes.
 

Re: Linux Lite Future
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2017, 01:00:47 PM »
 

bermudalite

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Regarding the 32-bit discussion:
I think Jerry's stated goal..."to show Windows users that Linux is not the hard OS they thought or heard it was"...pretty much sums up why the support for 32-bit processors is disappearing. 

The focus is on transitioning current Windows users who are considering test driving Linux for the first time.  My guess is the vast majority of that audience probably have machines built in the last decade running Windows 7, 8 or 10 (or God forbid Vista).  If so, those machines pretty much all have 64-bit processors, right? 
Therefore continuing support for 32-bit really does not advance the mission.

The goal is not to keep old machines alive.  Actually the goal is not even to create a distro that will attract users of other Linux distros.  The goal is to dispel myths about the the complexity of Linux and to ease the transition from Windows.  A simple goal which I respect and appreciate.

What I find ironic as I read these forums is the number of semi-experienced Linux noobs (as I think of myself) or even mature Linux users who have migrated to Linux Lite from other more popular (and presumably better funded) distros. 

Since Jerry is not attempting to create a one-size-fits-all distro, I think a fascinating question would be what is the natural progression after the LL goal is accomplished IF the converted user matures into a Linux expert?  Do they stick with LL as their daily driver or would they seek a familiar but more robust alternative?  If so, what distro is similar to LL but offers something more for advanced users???

Forgive my digression.

Thanks again Jerry et al.
 

Re: Linux Lite Future
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2017, 06:21:14 PM »
 

br1anstorm

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Some pretty profound questions are surfacing as this thread continues.

There's an interesting assumption - probably well founded - that most people prefer the familiar devil they know (Windows) to the unfamiliar one which they don't (Linux).  Hence Jerry's mission to make Linux (Lite) reassuringly easy for Windows converts.  I recall when I first dipped my toe in the Linux water, I was attracted by Zorin which had a similar aim, and explicitly claimed to look, feel and function like Windows XP.

The paradox is that having made the transition to Linux, there is a constant tension between wanting to stick with what's reliable, effective and easy to use, and being tempted into something shinier, faster, glitzier and more complex.  Thus the enduring attachment of so many Windows users to XP.  I'd guess that a lot of Linux users are the same:  once they have found a distro that works well and looks good, they are less keen to push boundaries and try more exotic variations. 

The recent challenges for Linux developers emerge from the nature and pace of technical change which is being forced upon them.  Not just the shift from 32-bit to 64.  Even more of a headache (in my view) is the move from what's now called 'legacy' partitioning and boot procedure,  to the new-fangled UEFI (which I still find complex, strange and intimidating).

Personally I'd be happy to stick with Linux Lite (or my equal favourite, Mint) and not think about upgrading or changing for another five years or more.   But then I'm also happy to drive a ten-year old car and wear shoes that are worn-in enough to be comfortable, rather than going for the latest style in the showroom or shopfront! 

So maybe the challenge in terms of this thread's title, is whether Linux Lite's future is to push boundaries, become more sophisticated and (probably) more complex;  or to give priority to refining, polishing and maybe even simplifying (!) what already exists.  I'm sure we'll all watch and follow with interest!
 

Re: Linux Lite Future
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2017, 09:32:19 AM »
 

trinidad

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Probably the general purpose of Linux Lite is to reach out to ordinary Windows users, users who rarely use the Windows command line, users who want a simple comprehensible GUI. In many ways LL accomplishes this better than Mint, better than Ubuntu, better than Suse, and certainly better than Debian. Certainly Lite updates, Lite tweaks, and Lite mirror selection are the simplest to use of any distro out there. Linux Lite in a very real sense is out to smooth the hard core Linux edges off its OS for Windows users and replace them with simple GUI tools. As an Ubuntu based OS it still carries with it the power and room for creativity for more seasoned Linux users. Every day I use Debian 9, Ubuntu 16.04 and Windows 10, depending on what I'm trying to accomplish. Every day I learn something new. Every day I make typos that cost me time and effort. Every time I dabble with Linux Lite I enjoy it. I find myself enjoying the experience. It is a remarkable blend of simple sensible ideas, and maybe that is what is so refreshing about it to me. I think when 4.0 arrives LL will become the most recommended Linux for new users, and deservedly so.

TC
All opinions expressed and all advice given by Trinidad Cruz on this forum are his responsibility alone and do not necessarily reflect the views or methods of the developers of Linux Lite. He is a citizen of the United States where it is acceptable to occasionally be uninformed and inept as long as you pay your taxes.
 

Re: Linux Lite Future
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2017, 09:45:49 AM »
 

newtusmaximus

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Regarding the 32-bit discussion:
I think Jerry's stated goal..."to show Windows users that Linux is not the hard OS they thought or heard it was"...pretty much sums up why the support for 32-bit processors is disappearing. 

The focus is on transitioning current Windows users who are considering test driving Linux for the first time.  My guess is the vast majority of that audience probably have machines built in the last decade running Windows 7, 8 or 10 (or God forbid Vista).  If so, those machines pretty much all have 64-bit processors, right? 


The goal is not to keep old machines alive.  Actually the goal is not even to create a distro that will attract users of other Linux distros.  -----



<RANT>

The assumption that all those existing LL32 bit users could run 64bit on their exiting machines is what I question.     If that is incorrect, then those users will no longer be able to be part of the LL movement.

I also suspect the a fair number of existing linux users that come to LL do so because the "advances" in the distros that they have used are beginning to overload their machines - i.e getting slower performance.  They have found that by getting rid of all the unnecessary "bling" they can bring new life to their machines. ( many comments on this in the archive)

While pushing the boundaries is a natural progression for the Purists/techies, the vast majority of new linux users IMHO want a stable, "safe" OS  on which they can run the programs that interest them  - i.e a workhorse.  Not having to look over one's shoulder and keep one's fingers crossed in case it all crashes / blue screen etc.  i.e does the job it is supposed to do!!  LL provides that "safe  kindergarten"

For me, this OS is my "rock" - Being a SOHO (small office/home office) user I depend on it so that I can get on with earning my crust.    In the past, all too often, software problems appeared out of the blue, and time that I could ill afford was spent frantically trying to put thing right - often occurring when there were tight deadlines to be met

Having flirted with various  Linux distros for some time, the decision to  jump in, was eventually made because I had found this forum and I had the confidence that clear advice would be available to help me through the learning curve.  And so so it has been, for which thanks to all involved.

Those involved with frontier expanding work / gaming, cad, VR etc will have very different views , but they will be  more experienced in the black arts of linux and be able to fend for themselves or congregate to to other forums / networks.

With regards to keeping old machines alive:  If those machines are working well and users are able to still use them to achieve their goals/interests, why should those users be abandoned.

I had tried Puppy linux and similar, but found limitations in the range of software that had the necessary PET format;  I was not sufficiently knowledgeable on how to get round those limitations - not had the time to find out.

So  my hope is that LL does not forget what it has started, its core ethos to help newbies to convert to, feel comfortable with  linux  and leave such members behind in the rush to move "forward" i.e the urge to pursue complexity for complexity's sake.  A fault I believe other larger distros have succumbed to - - too much "bling"
</RANT>

Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 09:55:36 AM by newtusmaximus
2006 - HP DC7700p ultraslim Desktop Intel 6300 cpu  4GB Ram LL3.6 64bit.
2007 - Fujitsu Siemens V3405 Laptop  2 GB Ram LL3.6 32bit. Now 32bit Debian 9 + nonfree.
2006 - Fujitsu Siemens Si1520 Laptop Intel T720 cpu 3GB Ram LL4.6 64bit
2003 - RETIRED Toshiba Satellite Pro A10 1 GB RAM LL2.8 32bit
 

Re: Linux Lite Future
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2017, 10:43:33 AM »
 

Jerry

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So good to see how many of you get what we are trying to achieve here.

We are not going to get any heavier and we are going to get even simpler as time goes by. Our past ideas are proof enough of that.

We'll even look a little prettier for those that look for that in a Distro. The ISO size will grow, but that is not a measure of 'lightness' as some mistake it for. You will still boot up to around 300mb after first install of Series 4.x and it will still be just as responsive as always.

The fact that it's December 2017 and I'm already working on Series 4.x shows how much work is going into this project.

K. I. S.

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Re: Linux Lite Future
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2017, 05:37:36 PM »
 

TheDead

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@Jerry
I'm going to try and get a ratio of what's in the "Bah, give that PC to charity." field. ;)
I always use the 32bits version, but, from now on I'll check the CPU specs in the machines I install LL on.
Lowest ones are around 2.2Ghx Semprons and Celerons.
I'm guessing a 75% x86-64 versus 25% x86... place your bets ladies and gents.

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Re: Linux Lite Future
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2017, 09:03:53 PM »
 

bermudalite

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Quote
I also suspect the a fair number of existing linux users that come to LL do so because the "advances" in the distros that they have used are beginning to overload their machines - i.e getting slower performance.  They have found that by getting rid of all the unnecessary "bling" they can bring new life to their machines. ( many comments on this in the archive)

newtusmaximus,
I agree that up until now several Linux users, like myself, have come to LL because other distros were too "blingy" or became too bloated.  We are benefiting from Jerry's (and the team's) labors even though he did not build LL with the intention of "stealing" current Linux users away from other distros.

Jerry has a rather singular mission.  It is simply to make it easy for Windows users to transition in to Linux.  It is not to support old machines.  Nor is it to create LL loyalists.  It appears the intent for LL is to be an entry point to the world of Linux.  If you decide to stay, great.  If you stay for a while then decide to move on to a (smaller or larger) distro better suited to you, groovy. 

In the future, Windows users on 32-bit machines will need to look elsewhere to test drive Linux.  The reality is if in 2018 someone is still using a Windows OS on an old 32-bit machine...they are seriously committed to Windows (and that machine)! :o

Maybe some 32-bit Linux Lite enthusiasts will develop and maintain a fork of LL to suit their needs.  Maybe they'll call it Linux Xtra-Lite.
Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 09:19:52 PM by bermudalite
 

Re: Linux Lite Future
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2017, 07:03:15 AM »
 

Jerry

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The goal is not to keep old machines alive.  Actually the goal is not even to create a distro that will attract users of other Linux distros.  The goal is to dispel myths about the the complexity of Linux and to ease the transition from Windows.  A simple goal which I respect and appreciate.


Nailed it!

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Linux Lite 4.6 Final has been released. See the Release Announcements section for more information.