Linux Lite Forums
Development => Linux Lite Software Development => Topic started by: AdrianKoshka on April 12, 2016, 01:32:14 AM
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If you to read want my secret gist I put on gist.github.com that I wrote in markdown click the link https://gist.github.com/AdrianKoshka/d2537c48f88d690442473fe37b72f6e8 (https://gist.github.com/AdrianKoshka/d2537c48f88d690442473fe37b72f6e8)
Otherwise this will pretty much be a reiteration of my gist post.
Through the short time I've been helping a community member with his projects I've seen a little bit of the development process of Linux Lite...and to be honest it terrifies me. This will serve as a brief overview of what I find wrong with the Linux Lite Development Model.
Linux Lite Issues
This document will serve to hopefully compile all issues I see with various projects done by Linux Lite. I feel this is a better way to do things as the current system is not oriented towards teamwork (the lack of a github organization really needs to be fixed, no offense).
Documentation
Documentation is severely lacking in Linux lite, and the manual is--not the best either. I don't say these accusations though without providing suggestions, also I've started my own person rewrite of the Linux Lite Manual in gitbook, which can be found here https://www.gitbook.com/book/adriankoshka/lite-manual/details (https://www.gitbook.com/book/adriankoshka/lite-manual/details) It's a WIP.
Github Organization
NOTE: DON'T GET BUTTHURT READING THIS, KEEP YOUR COOL, I'M BEING SERIOUS
To give proper credit to authors, whether it be for documentation, code, etc a github organization NEEDS to be setup. This hacky method of keeping a distributions projects under a user account is simply not acceptable. Some reasons this isn't accept are:
- It makes it look like authors have COPIED their ORIGINAL works!
- It doesn't foster a sense of community.
- It makes it harder for people who want to help contribute.
- It slows down progress.
that is just a short list of reasons why. A github organization will allow for Linux Lite to grow faster, for reasons such as:
- The community has more involvement.
- More people can take time to fix things.
- More work can be done independently
- More issues can be addressed
- A smoother work flow can be achieved.
- Less overhead.
Things That NEED fixing
These applications at this point don't have what I feel would meet minimum documentation requirements.
- Lite Software https://github.com/linuxlite/litesoftware (https://github.com/linuxlite/litesoftware)
- Lite Control Center (almost, but not quite there) https://github.com/linuxlite/litecontrolcenter (https://github.com/linuxlite/litecontrolcenter)
- Lite Manual (Official, not my gitbook rewrite) https://github.com/linuxlite/litemanual (https://github.com/linuxlite/litemanual)
- Lite Welcome https://github.com/linuxlite/litewelcome/issues/5 (https://github.com/linuxlite/litewelcome/issues/5)
- Lite Tweaks https://github.com/linuxlite/litetweaks (https://github.com/linuxlite/litetweaks)
- xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin (Almost...not quite) https://github.com/linuxlite/xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin (https://github.com/linuxlite/xfce4-whiskermenu-plugin)
- Lite Builder https://github.com/linuxlite/litebuilder (https://github.com/linuxlite/litebuilder)
- Lite User Manager https://github.com/linuxlite/liteusermanager (https://github.com/linuxlite/liteusermanager)
- Linux Lite Kernel Build Script (IMPORTANT) https://github.com/linuxlite/kernelbuildscript (https://github.com/linuxlite/kernelbuildscript)
- Lite Login (Doesn't seem like you'd need much for a theme) https://github.com/linuxlite/litelogin (https://github.com/linuxlite/litelogin)
Minimum "Documentation" Requirements for README.md
You may see this and say "woah! That's a majority of the repos in your list!" and sadly this is true. Though I have very basic requirements for the README.md file of all repos.
- A short description of the applications' function.
- A screenshot or two, depends on what the application is I suppose.
- A list of Depends
- there is no arguing here, it'll make the job of future devs easier!
- An Alphabetically sorted, bulleted list of authors.
- Credits
for an example of this, see the lite-updater repo. https://github.com/linuxlite/lite-updater (https://github.com/linuxlite/lite-updater)
Belongs somewhere ELSE
A list of repos/software that is not in the "correct" location.
- Lite Upgrade https://github.com/linuxlite/liteupgrade (https://github.com/linuxlite/liteupgrade) <-- shouldn't exist anymore in my opinion
- Lite Tasker https://github.com/linuxlite/litetasker (https://github.com/linuxlite/litetasker)
- Lite Projects 2.0 <-- This is what milestones are for in github https://github.com/linuxlite/liteprojects2.0 (https://github.com/linuxlite/liteprojects2.0)
Clean up "Abandonware"
This section is for stuff I don't know whether LL uses anymore, that should be cleaned up.
- laughing-avanger https://github.com/linuxlite/laughing-avenger (https://github.com/linuxlite/laughing-avenger)
- Lite Backup https://github.com/linuxlite/litebackup (https://github.com/linuxlite/litebackup)
- Lite Time https://github.com/linuxlite/litetime (https://github.com/linuxlite/litetime)
- Lite Boot Screen https://github.com/linuxlite/litebootscreen (https://github.com/linuxlite/litebootscreen)
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Jesus Christ dude! Let Jerry and the team do what they want to do. It's their github account. Who are you to say what they should do. It isn't your project. Get over it. Be at least a *little* thankful that the team is taking time away from their families to develop this distro for the benefit of the community. Seriously!
I understand your intentions of trying to improve upon the development process, but there is a clear line between friendly suggestions & improvements, and elitist demands & personal preferences. This leads more toward the elitist side, and organization is a personal preference thing, for the most part. However, some of the improvements you mention are definitely worthwhile to implement in the future. Brutally criticizing the Lite team isn't going help the project, or help get those problems fixed.
If you want to improve for them & join the team, by all means, DO IT. You'll be helping a great cause for a great purpose.
¿If any moderators/admins are reading, close the thread for further discussion, maybe?
Typed & Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 3 [SM-N900T] using the Tapatalk Android app.
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Jesus Christ dude! Let Jerry and the team do what they want to do. It's their github account. Who are you to say what they should do. It isn't your project. Get over it. Be at least a *little* thankful that the team is taking time away from their families to develop this distro for the benefit of the community. Seriously!
I understand your intentions of trying to improve upon the development process, but there is a clear line between friendly suggestions & improvements, and elitist demands & personal preferences. This leads more toward the elitist side, and organization is a personal preference thing, for the most part. However, some of the improvements you mention are definitely worthwhile to implement in the future. Brutally criticizing the Lite team isn't going help the project, or help get those problems fixed.
If you want to improve for them & join the team, by all means, DO IT. You'll be helping a great cause for a great purpose.
¿If any moderators/admins are reading, close the thread for further discussion, maybe?
Typed & Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 3 [SM-N900T] using the Tapatalk Android app.
To be totally fair... everything you said is a personal view. Of which we should all respect. But there is nothing wrong with honestly or opinions... if you start silencing people then you be come the jerks imo.
As long as the language remains within reason, I see no need to censor people.. remember we're all about Linux and opensource. Part of which is debate and criticism.
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Adrian,
As a user of LL and linux newbie, I have very little to no understanding of what goes on "under the hood" All I can do is appreciate the time and effort that has been given freely to get this project off the ground and the commitment to develop “easy” path for newbies like myself to migrate to Linux.
There are always ways to improve and it is refreshing when new eyes look at what has been done and can make helpful suggestions and put their contribution to the process.
However I do think that the way it is initiated is always a sensitive matter. Your contribution would have been more diplomatic by contacting Jerry direct and with not such a blunt “public” approach.
The amount of work / thought you have put into your structured appraisal / critique is acknowledged (github), and I for one hope that you can find a way to put that enthusiasm into the project, but as a team member and in a collaborative manner..
My layman's 2C worth :)
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Thanks for your feeeback! Also I want to state I do want to help with the development of Linux Lite and help fix the things I stated, and I understand it's a project done in free time. Though I still stand by what I've said. I thought the public approach would be better to be entirely honest, instead instead of keeping it "under wraps" and to a select group of people.
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In my day to day life I do Business Analysis, Project Management, Requirements Gathering et al.
There are many "standards" and "methods" for doing these things, But some times you have to deviate from the "ideal" standards & methods.
Everybody will have an opinion on what is, what isn't the best/right way to move forward, in this case LL Development/Management.
As an outside observer(and user) of LL I'm not "technically" qualified to comment on is it being done correctly.?
What I can say, "as a user of LL" is what ever process is being used appears to be working...
I would hate to see LL get bogged down, stumble just because it "appears" to be not following a certain way of doing things.
Ultimately it's down to the owner & developers of LL to make the "right call"
Do they feel comfortable in their methods/approach, and what are the risks.?
Just my 2p/c worth...
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I will be commenting on this thread, but only after the community has had their say, so that I don't appear to influence anyone's point of view. Cheers.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
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In my day to day life I do Business Analysis, Project Management, Requirements Gathering et al.
There are many "standards" and "methods" for doing these things, But some times you have to deviate from the "ideal" standards & methods.
Everybody will have an opinion on what is, what isn't the best/right way to move forward, in this case LL Development/Management.
As an outside observer(and user) of LL I'm not "technically" qualified to comment on is it being done correctly.?
What I can say, "as a user of LL" is what ever process is being used appears to be working...
I would hate to see LL get bogged down, stumble just because it "appears" to be not following a certain way of doing things.
Ultimately it's down to the owner & developers of LL to make the "right call"
Do they feel comfortable in their methods/approach, and what are the risks.?
Just my 2p/c worth...
Sorta reminds me of https://xkcd.com/927/ lol
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Jesus Christ dude! Let Jerry and the team do what they want to do. It's their github account. Who are you to say what they should do.
And who are you to silence other's when they express their opinion and/or personal view?
To AdrianKoshka:
As this is more a personal experience and/or opinion and/or personal view it's good to see that you took the time to write down your comments. Just a hint, next time don't add all those big bold lines as it looks like you're shouting. I think some might be worth looking at by the LL team. Other's might come down as just a personal experience.
As i learned over the years, Linux will never come in a package and configuration you like and want. Some users distro hop for months experimenting with any distro out there before they can choose the distro that meet their requirements the closed. As i'm used to Linux Mint, i feel that some good options the Mint team added in the Linux Mint distro is completely missing in Linux Lite, and visa versa. I'm using LL since some time but it shoot me back into learning mode while with Mint i was an experienced user. Every distro has it's con's and pro's, it's up to you to decide which distro suits your needs the most.
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In my day to day life I do Business Analysis, Project Management, Requirements Gathering et al.
There are many "standards" and "methods" for doing these things, But some times you have to deviate from the "ideal" standards & methods.
Everybody will have an opinion on what is, what isn't the best/right way to move forward, in this case LL Development/Management.
As an outside observer(and user) of LL I'm not "technically" qualified to comment on is it being done correctly.?
What I can say, "as a user of LL" is what ever process is being used appears to be working...
I would hate to see LL get bogged down, stumble just because it "appears" to be not following a certain way of doing things.
Ultimately it's down to the owner & developers of LL to make the "right call"
Do they feel comfortable in their methods/approach, and what are the risks.?
Just my 2p/c worth...
I can totally agree with you. Thanks for the feedback!
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Jesus Christ dude! Let Jerry and the team do what they want to do. It's their github account. Who are you to say what they should do.
To AdrianKoshka:
As this is more a personal experience and/or opinion and/or personal view it's good to see that you took the time to write down your comments. Just a hint, next time don't add all those big bold lines as it looks like you're shouting. I think some might be worth looking at by the LL team. Other's might come down as just a personal experience.
As i learned over the years, Linux will never come in a package and configuration you like and want.
I agree, no one distortion of Linux can be perfect, I'm just trying to help linux lite grow, suppose it came off in the wrong manner.
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I will be commenting on this thread, but only after the community has had their say, so that I don't appear to influence anyone's point of view. Cheers.
Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
Thanks!
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First off... Welcome to the Forums and what an entrance... :D
My plugged nickle.... and to keep things brief...
I feel the DEVs include the community as a whole to some of the decisions and design of the OS. From items/apps that maybe included within, to the look and feel. There are many threads devoted to enhancements of upcoming releases as well as quirks.
You have just recently registered, maybe you've looked through forums, maybe you peered at the manual, I assume you've installed the software and want to suggest how you can make it better... GREAT!! go for it, by all means have those conversations with the DEVs/Admin - conversations.... Converse, suggest, input and contribute...
Make sure you understand the premise/mission of Linux Lite?
To me it does look like you went off blasting (just my take) but hey... As mentioned Bold letters, caps, overly large fonts taken as shouting, and...
NOTE: DON'T GET BUTTHURT READING THIS, KEEP YOUR COOL, I'M BEING SERIOUS
You knew in the way that you were going about things that you were going to upset folks. 8)
Its like one of my kids saying... Don't get mad but....
;D Oh and you can't use words like butthurt and be taken serious.... LOL maybe I'm old ;)
There are TONs of distro's out there... Are there better...? Are there worse..?? ??? SURE... but to what extent...
Its not the distro - its the users, without users there is no distro...
Maybe everyone else is doing it wrong???
Aside from a great Linux distro, Jerry and team have tweaked and modified LL to a point that Windows users can pick up and go with LL..
Now add that they can do this on the same system that was running XP...
Is this the best premise??? Maybe not if you want to be cutting edge - but its how I how I got here..
Please don't misinterpret any criticism. We all start somewhere, anything and everything can be learning moment...
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First off... Welcome to the Forums and what an entrance... :D
My plugged nickle.... and to keep things brief...
I feel the DEVs include the community as a whole to some of the decisions and design of the OS. From items/apps that maybe included within, to the look and feel. There are many threads devoted to enhancements of upcoming releases as well as quirks.
You have just recently registered, maybe you've looked through forums, maybe you peered at the manual, I assume you've installed the software and want to suggest how you can make it better... GREAT!! go for it, by all means have those conversations with the DEVs/Admin - conversations.... Converse, suggest, input and contribute...
Make sure you understand the premise/mission of Linux Lite?
To me it does look like you went off blasting (just my take) but hey... As mentioned Bold letters, caps, overly large fonts taken as shouting, and...
NOTE: DON'T GET BUTTHURT READING THIS, KEEP YOUR COOL, I'M BEING SERIOUS
You knew in the way that you were going about things that you were going to upset folks. 8)
Its like one of my kids saying... Don't get mad but....
;D Oh and you can't use words like butthurt and be taken serious.... LOL maybe I'm old ;)
There are TONs of distro's out there... Are there better...? Are there worse..?? ??? SURE... but to what extent...
Its not the distro - its the users, without users there is no distro...
Maybe everyone else is doing it wrong???
Aside from a great Linux distro, Jerry and team have tweaked and modified LL to a point that Windows users can pick up and go with LL..
Now add that they can do this on the same system that was running XP...
Is this the best premise??? Maybe not if you want to be cutting edge - but its how I how I got here..
Please don't misinterpret any criticism. We all start somewhere, anything and everything can be learning moment...
Thanks for the welcome! I know I did seem to come off quite brash and a bit rude.
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First off, I would like to thank you for your contributions so far, and welcome you to the forum. I think you should hang around, and see more of the development process, (Take in the whole picture), before passing judgement. The development team, and the members of this community have put a lot of effort into making this one of the easiest Linux distributions to use for new comers. I personally used perhaps a dozen or more distributions before finding Linux Lite, and I am very proud to be part of this community. It is hard not to get defensive when someone "attacks" something you feel proud of. That being said, an example usually works much better than criticism. :)
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" I'm just trying to help linux lite grow, suppose it came off in the wrong manner. "
Lesson learned?? No harm done I am sure. Welcome :)
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Welcome @AdrianKoshka
All the things you pointed are true.
@everyone this is not an atack but think of it as a contribution
And by my opinion a good one. Contributions are not just coding and dondations. It's about a dialogue, collaboration and exchange.
Pointing out things that can be better helps further development.
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I read the author's comment, and skimmed the rest of the thread. With the exception of the "it terrifies me" comment, I appreciate the author's contribution. The author didn't just say "LL sucks," dropped the mic, and walked away. His criticisms were specific. He took the time to investigate those specific points and offer suggestions.
Sounds like Linux Lite just got the benefit of someone, with skill, who's raising their hand to offer some help. Instead of just taking from the project, it seems AdrianKoshka wants to give. I say the project should consider entertaining that.
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To clarify my previous statement, I was not trying to suggest that this was a attack. I also think it is a contribution worth consideration.
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First off, I would like to thank you for your contributions so far, and welcome you to the forum. I think you should hang around, and see more of the development process, (Take in the whole picture), before passing judgement. The development team, and the members of this community have put a lot of effort into making this one of the easiest Linux distributions to use for new comers. I personally used perhaps a dozen or more distributions before finding Linux Lite, and I am very proud to be part of this community. It is hard not to get defensive when someone "attacks" something you feel proud of. That being said, an example usually works much better than criticism. :)
Thanks for being so kind! I am thinking of sticking around more for sure, I wanna fix the things I've pointed out.
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Busy helping my distro team.
Grinning as I read this thread.
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Welcome @AdrianKoshka
All the things you pointed are true.
@everyone this is not an atack but think of it as a contribution
And by my opinion a good one. Contributions are not just coding and dondations. It's about a dialogue, collaboration and exchange.
Pointing out things that can be better helps further development.
This is exactly what I had in mind when I made this post. Thanks for the comment.
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:) Ah the impetuousness of youth. Wish I could remember back that far :(
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Great discussion/ dialog so far! Thanks, Adrian, for kicking it off. And thanks to the LL community & developers to show once more how mature and open minded you are. It's a huge pleasure to be part of it.
In my understanding Adrian did hardly say anything about the result, Linux Lite as a distribution itself. It was all about the processes and procedures in the background. So, good on him pointing out areas where energy can be saved, collaboration & synergy can be nourished, efficiency & effectiveness can be increased. It won't necessarily make a big difference directly and short term for the end user (except the manual having a search functionality included :) ), but in the long run will enable the development to be even more successful. And therefore will ultimately also have huge benefits for the users of Linux Lite. :)
One of my mottoes: There is always room for improvement :)
Great, people pointing it out. Even better, open minded people taking it on board.
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I couldn't have said it better myself!
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There are two perspectives here. One from the developers, and one from the users.
Was this the best place to have this thread and discussion? My first thought is that this matter should be discussed at the developer level since with all due respect, Joe User does not programme or understand development structures and the details therein. My second thought is that there is an opportunity to have community input, something I have always encouraged with this distribution.
Development and Standards - I understand at the developer level, programmers and development teams are used to working within these parameters. Linux Lite started off with one person and one mission - to win over Windows folks, nothing has changed. In the beginning, the focus was on getting easy to use software out to these people right from day one. As I was doing most of the work myself in the early days, development had to fit in with a full time job, and other out of work activities. It still does. I adopted GPL2 as our preferred license, and shared source code. Code was written quickly, tested, then released. I have always been aware of the complete development process but simply didn't have the time to do it.
In order for a distribution to appeal to more people is has to have a good set of intuitive software. Every program must be developed for Linux Lite with the assumption that your 70 grandma with little to no computing experience, could use it. As a distribution grows, more development tends to follow. As your software evolves, you increase the likelihood of developers wanting to come and work on it. This the stage we're at now.
Let me be clear about my focus. It's purely on Windows users, not existing linux users. I'm not concerned with popularity on ranking charts and reviews from people who don't understand our focus and therefore judge the distribution against existing distributions.
At the end of the day all decisions begin and end with me. It's not a responsibility I take lightly.
I have experienced a lot of arrogance and elitism within the programming community. That's why this Ethos exists - https://www.linuxliteos.com/development.html#contribute I'm happy to have people help with LL, but the 'my way is the only way' attitude won't work here.
What's the future of development in LL. How to we proceed?
In the last few months, I introduced adverts to the Linux Lite website and Forums. I've never been a big fan of ads. I decided it was a 'necessary evil' to ensure that as ad revenue increases over time, I can drop more work days and stay at home and devote more time to Linux Lite. This reality is a few years off yet. At the moment I have 2 days off from work a week, and to be honest, I don't want to spend all that time in front of a pc. I'd like to live my life.
The Linux Lite Manual will not change, we cannot ignore the positive feedback we've had from people and simply abandon the current format. Developers may have better ideas about it, but it's our focus group that I pay attention to.
I'm not going to respond to the OP's points one by one because it's better for me to spend my time responding to this thread with a clear, overall reason why things are the way they are.
I would like to thank AdrianKoshka for taking the time to construct his post, and for wanting to help the project.
Linux Lite at the development level will improve, Github is an incredible resource and I will certainly look at using more of it's resources to streamline development, but it won't be at the pace people expect.
If you like what we do, if you're passionate about converting our target audience, keep coding. The backend will come together over time. For now, focus on the users rather than development semantics.
Thank you to all those who have contributed to this thread. :)
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I'm not concerned with popularity on ranking charts and reviews
Jerry, isn't this the best attitude to develop a Linux distro? Go for this attitude and you will be successful!
No stress about rankings/reviews, no panic attacks about rankings/reviews, no bad decisions to be taken due to all those stress and panic and walking on eggs, just go your own way.
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Hi Jerry.
I guess I'm one of the ones LL isn't aimed at ;)
The only time I have used windows,in the last few years, was when I bought this lap-top off gumtree and it had Win 7 installed.
I tried it for a while to see if I was missing anything and guess what, I didn't.
Like most I did my share of distro hopping and I settled on Peppermint, staring with Peppermint ICE.
Then I tried LL and it was like coming home.
The forum (community) is friendly.
We have all the suggestion threads.
Its rock solid and with the xfce DE I can set it up just as I like.
So I have 100% trust in Jerry and the crew and I just want a distro that allows me not to worry about too much compiling :)
Keith :)
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The Linux Lite Manual will not change
I never intended to change the format of the manual, I'm rewriting it in gitbook (using markdown) simply because it's much easier for me, but the manual in some sections does need revision.
My first thought is that this matter should be discussed at the developer level since with all due respect, Joe User does not programme or understand development structures and the details therein.
Also, please don't talk down to the community, even though this is posted in the developer sub-section of the forums, anyone is free to voice their opinion.
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The Linux Lite Manual will not change
I never intended to change the format of the manual, I'm rewriting it in gitbook (using markdown) simply because it's much easier for me, but the manual in some sections does need revision.
Understood, cheers.
My first thought is that this matter should be discussed at the developer level since with all due respect, Joe User does not programme or understand development structures and the details therein.
Also, please don't talk down to the community, even though this is posted in the developer sub-section of the forums, anyone is free to voice their opinion.
This is not talking down to the community, this being respectfully truthful. It does however seem that your initial post did offend some people, but struck a chord with others.
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As a recent converted windows user, I can clearly confirm your targeted at windows user comment to be dead on. Between lite tasks, control center, and lite software I'm absolutely sold. Bleachbit, terminal, etc can just be terrifying to me. Them manual seems perfect to me and have never been to a github.