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Software - Support => Installing Software => Topic started by: Jan on March 05, 2020, 01:12:47 PM

Title: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 05, 2020, 01:12:47 PM
Its a long time since I've been to these forums, but I just installed 4.8 on my old windows 7 laptop.  I'm trying to install the clamav antivirus as instructed in the help manual.  Despite receiving the ERROR message and typing in the sudo rm -rf /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log command, I repeatedly get the reply: 

"can't download daily.cvd from https://database.clamav.net/daily.cvd (https://database.clamav.net/daily.cvd).  Download failed.
Time out was reached.  Remote version 25742.
Has anyone else ran into this problem? 
 
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Moltke on March 06, 2020, 10:17:23 AM
Its a long time since I've been to these forums, but I just installed 4.8 on my old windows 7 laptop.  I'm trying to install the clamav antivirus as instructed in the help manual.  Despite receiving the ERROR message and typing in the sudo rm -rf /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log command, I repeatedly get the reply: 

"can't download daily.cvd from https://database.clamav.net/daily.cvd.  Download failed.
Time out was reached.  Remote version 25742.
Has anyone else ran into this problem?

I remember having this issue a while ago and can't exactly remember but I don't think ever managed to solve it, I just stopped trying and decided not to use any AV software in Linux,  so far haven't had any virus/malware scenarios. However, googling for it gave this https://www.howtoforge.com/community/threads/clamav-database-update-error.76634/ try that and see and if it works.

Hope this helps! :)
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jerry on March 06, 2020, 10:21:10 AM
Has this been resolved? Could have just been a server issue on that day.

Try: https://gitlab.com/dave_m/clamtk/issues/90

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 06, 2020, 05:15:18 PM
I remember having this issue a while ago and can't exactly remember but I don't think ever managed to solve it, I just stopped trying and decided not to use any AV software in Linux,  so far haven't had any virus/malware scenarios. However, googling for it gave this https://www.howtoforge.com/community/threads/clamav-database-update-error.76634/ (https://www.howtoforge.com/community/threads/clamav-database-update-error.76634/) try that and see and if it works.

Thank you, Moltke, for the suggestion but, sadly, it didn't work out in my case. :(
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 06, 2020, 05:34:28 PM
Has this been resolved? Could have just been a server issue on that day.

Try: https://gitlab.com/dave_m/clamtk/issues/90

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk


Hi Jerry,  Thanks for your reply.  I tried loading clamav again today, and although it came from a different server, I got the same ERROR messages as before.  Actually, there are four ERROR messages in total and they are as follows:

ERROR: /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log is locked by another process
ERROR: Problem with internal logger (UpdateFileLog =  /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log)
ERROR: initialize: libfreshclam unit failed
ERROR: Initialization error

Also, I tried the  https://gitlab.com/dave_m/clamtk/issues/90.  It downloaded fine, but the clamav does not show up as an application, so am unable to execute the download.  I checked the Synaptics Manager folder and clamav and clamav-daemon show up as installed programs there, but nowhere else.  So, maybe this program is partially installed ???
 
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jerry on March 07, 2020, 12:10:42 AM
How did you initially install clamav?

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: robinc on March 07, 2020, 12:14:48 AM
Some years ago I had an issue with clamav on LXLE 12.04 not updating. It was down to permissions on the log file.

This was what I wrote at the time - don't know if it helps.

Quote
Noticed one issue - clamav cannot update sigs because the log file directory is missing.
If you run sudo freshclam you get error:-
Can't open /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log in append mode

As root I created /var/log/clamav, then:-
chown -R clamav:clamav /var/log/clamav

freshclam now updates sigs OK.
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: firenice03 on March 07, 2020, 11:38:39 AM
Has this been resolved? Could have just been a server issue on that day.

Try: https://gitlab.com/dave_m/clamtk/issues/90 (https://gitlab.com/dave_m/clamtk/issues/90)

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk


Hi Jerry,  Thanks for your reply.  I tried loading clamav again today, and although it came from a different server, I got the same ERROR messages as before.  Actually, there are four ERROR messages in total and they are as follows:

ERROR: /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log is locked by another process
ERROR: Problem with internal logger (UpdateFileLog =  /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log)
ERROR: initialize: libfreshclam unit failed
ERROR: Initialization error

Also, I tried the  https://gitlab.com/dave_m/clamtk/issues/90 (https://gitlab.com/dave_m/clamtk/issues/90).  It downloaded fine, but the clamav does not show up as an application, so am unable to execute the download.  I checked the Synaptics Manager folder and clamav and clamav-daemon show up as installed programs there, but nowhere else.  So, maybe this program is partially installed ???
 


@Jan


View my post here https://www.linuxliteos.com/forums/installing-software/unable-to-get-antivirus/msg39662/#msg39662


The lock error = remove that log file, you may have cancelled/stopped a run - I tested on my old LL3.8 and mid scan cancelled tried update -- got locked error - rm commands ran, updated fine and a new scan ran..


I did get a notification it couldn't find a config file on initial 'freshclam' on 2nd run all up to date..


*use sudo and change directory to your home (I used 'yourusername')

Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: ridenotwalk on March 07, 2020, 11:32:03 PM
I ran into the same problem and this is what I did and it worked for me
I'll put a couple of caveats on it though so YMMV;
I am a relatively new user to Linux so my knowledge/experience is way lower than most and I may be leading you up the garden path
I still use some vocabulary that is more related to windoze but it should make sense
I did this on Linux Mint 19.3, not LL so some things may be different - I wanted to try LM on my laptop just to see what I think.
I am running LM on a 128Gb USB stick so am essentially dual booting Win10/LM at the moment
I used the GUI for some things as I'm not a super confident user of the Terminal yet.

These are the steps I followed


I used timeshift to create a new restore point just in case I stuffed something up

I did a complete remove of clamav using terminal -
Code: [Select]
sudo apt purge clamav
I used the file manager, logged on as root, to find and delete all files/directories related to clamav. I did not delete any that were in the timeshift directories

I did a new install of clamav via terminal -
Quote
sudo apt install clamav
  during this process I got recommended other installs so added those. In the end it looked like this -
Code: [Select]
sudo apt install clamav clamav-daemon clamav-docs libclamunrar9 daemon clamdscan
Once installed I rebooted the laptop

I ran
Code: [Select]
sudo freashclam and got the expected errors (locked by another process, etc)

I removed the logfile using
Code: [Select]
sudo rm /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log Note I did not use -rf

I ran
Code: [Select]
sudo freshclam again to have it time out

Using the file manager, logged in as root, I found and edited the freshclam.conf file changing ConnectTimeout to 300 and RecieveTimeout to 300. I also changed Checks to 6 but that's me, you don't have to do this.
The idea behind changing the timeouts was due to the awsomely great and fantastic internet we get here in Oz, I figured it was taking too long to download the DB's and freshclam times out for me.

I ran
Code: [Select]
sudo freshclam again and the DB finished downloading and passed checks

Moments ago I ran
Code: [Select]
sudo freshclam and got
Code: [Select]
Sun Mar  8 12:22:47 2020 -> ClamAV update process started at Sun Mar  8 12:22:47 2020
Sun Mar  8 12:22:47 2020 -> daily.cvd database is up to date (version: 25744, sigs: 2210896, f-level: 63, builder: raynman)
Sun Mar  8 12:22:47 2020 -> main.cvd database is up to date (version: 59, sigs: 4564902, f-level: 60, builder: sigmgr)
Sun Mar  8 12:22:47 2020 -> bytecode.cvd database is up to date (version: 331, sigs: 94, f-level: 63, builder: anvilleg)
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jerry on March 08, 2020, 12:41:49 AM
The Help Manual has the best-practice guide specifically designed for Linux Lite.
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: ridenotwalk on March 08, 2020, 01:52:30 AM
The Help Manual has the best-practice guide specifically designed for Linux Lite.


Hi Jerry,
I used your tut to setup clamav on my laptop using LL4.2 UEFI and had the same timeout occur. At the time I cancelled the download and continued on to running a scan thinking I would search for a solution later. I did look at the user manual with no result and after searching for and trying several ideas I still had the timeout so put it in my sort out later basket.
Between then and now I decided to try LM on my laptop as I currently have LM on my main desktop which is packed away as I'm doing some renos to the house :-)  mostly because I wanted to compare LL to LM
I used your tut to setup clamav again, this time on LM 19.3 and encountered the same issues as I encountered using LL. I thought that the timeout might be related to the super awsome internet we get here in Oz so tried the changes and it solved the timeout problem for me so thought I'd share.
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 08, 2020, 12:28:33 PM
How did you initially install clamav?

Sent from my Mobile phone using Tapatalk

Well, truth be told, that's where I messed up initially, Jerry.  After installing the new 4.8 and downloading the updates, I went to the Synaptics Folder and started downloading the clamav from there.  I think I might have checked off some folders that I should not have checked.  When I ran into problems I checked the forum and saw where you referred another user to the clamav tutorial, which is very straight forward and easy to follow.  Afterward I thought maybe I should just do a fresh re-install of 4.8 and overwrite the existing one.  I started to do that but got nervous when I came to the re-partitioning part and wasn't sure how to proceed in overwriting it.  By then it was close to 2 am.  I thought it was best to shut things down at that point before I did something really stupid.  :)
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 08, 2020, 01:57:48 PM
I ran into the same problem and this is what I did and it worked for me....

...again to have it time out.
Using the file manager, logged in as root, I found and edited the freshclam.conf file changing ConnectTimeout to 300 and RecieveTimeout to 300. I also changed Checks to 6 but that's me, you don't have to do this.
The idea behind changing the timeouts was due to the awsomely great and fantastic internet we get here in Oz, I figured it was taking too long to download the DB's and freshclam times out for me.

I ran
Code: [Select]
sudo freshclam again and the DB finished downloading and passed checks

Moments ago I ran
Code: [Select]
sudo freshclam and got
Code: [Select]
Sun Mar  8 12:22:47 2020 -> ClamAV update process started at Sun Mar  8 12:22:47 2020
Sun Mar  8 12:22:47 2020 -> daily.cvd database is up to date (version: 25744, sigs: 2210896, f-level: 63, builder: raynman)
Sun Mar  8 12:22:47 2020 -> main.cvd database is up to date (version: 59, sigs: 4564902, f-level: 60, builder: sigmgr)
Sun Mar  8 12:22:47 2020 -> bytecode.cvd database is up to date (version: 331, sigs: 94, f-level: 63, builder: anvilleg)

Thank you for your post.  I followed your advice to purge the clamav, but was not able to open the root folder in the file manager because it has a big X on it, so I skipped that part.  I then reinstalled the clamav, but followed the instructions in the tutorial.  Even so, I still ended up with the same four ERROR messages as before.  I ran both

sudo rm /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log
sudo rm -rf /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log

... but the problem is still the same the updates fail to load because it times out.  Seems like it could be a case of slow internet speed here too.

I would like to change the time connect settings in the freshclam.conf file as you did, but how to I get past the big X on the root folder in the File Manager?
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: ridenotwalk on March 09, 2020, 06:00:58 AM
I'm not using LL at the moment so created a live USB using LL4.2UEFI as I know it works on this laptop I'm using right now. The steps below are using that so if you are using a different version of LL you may need to adjust accordingly.


From Menu, select My Computer then File System

Anywhere in the white space right click and select Open as administrator
You will likely be asked to enter your password. PLEASE NOTE, you are now working as root and ANYTHING you do from now will be done without LL asking you for permission as it thinks you know what you are doing so does it. You can harm your computer without careful consideration of what you are doing so please if you are not comfortable with what you are about to do, don't do it and close the pane/window

Anywhere is the white space right click and select Search here

The search pane will open, search for freshclam.conf

Once the search has finished (it might find several directories/files) open the file as normal.

Find the ConnectTimeout and RecieveTimeout entries and change them to 300 (300 seconds). Default is 30 IIRC

Click save

Close each pane/window as you normally would until you are back to the desktop.

Open Terminal and
Code: [Select]
sudo freshclam
If you get the errors
Code: [Select]
sudo rm /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log You can do
Code: [Select]
sudo rm -rf /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log if you like, I just prefer not to as the -rf scares me a bit right now till I learn more

Code: [Select]
sudo freashclam again and it should update as normal.
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 09, 2020, 10:12:33 AM
Thank you for your reply!  Ok, as I type this, I'm at the part where you have written as follows:
"Once the search has finished (it might find several directories/files) open the file as normal."

 I have the freshclam.conf open and it shows 24 files - but none of them have the word "normal" in them.  Am I correctly understanding what you mean?
Also, there is a message at the top of the window that says: "The search database is more than 7 days old.  Update now?"  Should I do this? 

I await your reply.  Thank you so much, Ridenotwalk! 
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: ridenotwalk on March 09, 2020, 11:12:57 AM
Thank you for your reply!  Ok, as I type this, I'm at the part where you have written as follows:
"Once the search has finished (it might find several directories/files) open the file as normal."

I'll rephrase to try and avoid confusion.

Once the search has finished, open the file "freshclam.conf" as you would normally open a file by double clicking on it. Check carefully before opening anything as the search may return several results which may be either directories or files.
You need to open the file named freshclam.conf
It should be: a text file of aprox 702 bytes located in /ect/clamav



I have the freshclam.conf open and it shows 24 files  - but none of them have the word "normal" in them.  Am I correctly understanding what you mean?


No you've misunderstood. You need to close what ever you opened and check what I wrote above
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 09, 2020, 12:14:25 PM
Thank you for the clarification.  Alright, I have now successfully changed both timeout times from 30 to 300 and saved the changes.  I'm back in the Terminal now and entered

sudo freshclam
the same four EEROR messages repeated themselves as below:
ERROR: /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log is locked by another process
ERROR: Problem with internal logger (UpdateFileLog =  /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log)
ERROR: initialize: libfreshclam unit failed
ERROR: Initialization error
I typed both

sudo rm /var/log/clamav/freshclam.logsudo rm -rf /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log
but nothing at all happens now.  Do you think this may have something to do with that message I got when I opened freshclam.conf that said, "The search data base is more than 7 days old.  Update now?"
Or, do you think I should just start over again from the beginning with a purge of clamav as you first outlined?


Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: ridenotwalk on March 09, 2020, 06:52:09 PM
1. Open terminal

2. sudo rm /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log       or       sudo rm -rf /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log     
Note: You do not need to do both, either will achieve the same outcome

3. enter password if asked
Note: it will look like nothing has changed but it has

4. sudo freshclam

5. enter password if asked     
Note: update should start once you press enter


From all my readings of clamav, once freshclam has been run once manually and the db is updated fully, freshclam will run automatically as per the amount of checks noted in the freshclam.conf file so there is no need to manually run it again. I've looked at the log file and it appears this is what happens.
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 09, 2020, 08:32:08 PM
Thank you for your reply.
I proceeded with sudo freshclam and it looked like things were starting to work -  but then more problems.
I got the message that the daily database was available for download. 

After that the first two databases downloaded and passed the database test.
The problem is now with the download of the 3rd database.  I get the message: 

^Clamd was NOT notified; Can't connect to clamd through /var/run/clamav/clamd.ctl:  No such file or directory. 

 ???


 
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: ridenotwalk on March 10, 2020, 05:11:32 AM
Sorry Jan but I can't help with that one. I didn't get that error when I did it and I'm now at the extent of my knowledge.
My only suggestion is to remove clamav, delete all clamav related files and start with a fresh install of clamav as per Jerry's how to tutorial.
If you still get the above error after that then someone else will need to help out because I don't know the answer.
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 10, 2020, 09:23:32 AM
Sorry Jan but I can't help with that one. I didn't get that error when I did it and I'm now at the extent of my knowledge.
My only suggestion is to remove clamav, delete all clamav related files and start with a fresh install of clamav as per Jerry's how to tutorial.
If you still get the above error after that then someone else will need to help out because I don't know the answer.

Thank you, Ridenotwalk, for all your efforts to help solve this one. 

I did follow your suggestion above to remove the clamav and reinstall as per Jerry's tutorial but still get the same message:

^Clamd was NOT notified: Can't connect to clamd through/var/run/clamav/clamd.ctl: No such file or directory.

Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 10, 2020, 09:46:29 AM
Some years ago I had an issue with clamav on LXLE 12.04 not updating. It was down to permissions on the log file.

This was what I wrote at the time - don't know if it helps.

Quote
Noticed one issue - clamav cannot update sigs because the log file directory is missing.
If you run sudo freshclam you get error:-
Can't open /var/log/clamav/freshclam.log in append mode

As root I created /var/log/clamav, then:-
chown -R clamav:clamav /var/log/clamav

freshclam now updates sigs OK.

Thank you, robinc, for your reply when I first posted my issue with clamav and freshclam update failures. 

Given my current issue, ie., "^Clamd was NOT notified. Can't connect to clamd through /var/run/clamav/clamd.ctl:  No such file or directory.", I'm thinking that the solution that worked for you would not apply in my case.  I know very little about this subject matter, but thank you for taking the time to write and offer your suggestion. :)
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 10, 2020, 10:02:08 AM

The lock error = remove that log file, you may have cancelled/stopped a run - I tested on my old LL3.8 and mid scan cancelled tried update -- got locked error - rm commands ran, updated fine and a new scan ran..


I did get a notification it couldn't find a config file on initial 'freshclam' on 2nd run all up to date..


*use sudo and change directory to your home (I used 'yourusername')



Hi Firenice03, 

Thank you for your earlier response to my initial post. 

Given my current issue: ^Clamd was not installed.  Cant connect to clamd through /var/run/clamav/clamd.ctl:  No such file or directory. 

Do you think that your suggestion above would apply to my current issue?

Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 11, 2020, 02:53:28 PM
 

^Clamd was not installed.  Cant connect to clamd through /var/run/clamav/clamd.ctl:  No such file or directory. 

I think I must be jinxed!  Despite a fresh installation of LL 4.8, I've still run into ALL the exact same problems and error messages as before.  I'm currently back at my last and most recent error message as described above.  I'm totally exhausted.  Does anyone have a solution to this?  Many thanks!




Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: firenice03 on March 11, 2020, 04:32:11 PM
1st = Make a Time Shift back up = you wont have to reinstall if it goes sideways - you can revert back...

Not sure of your install process...


Following this 'should' get you clamav installed
https://www.linuxliteos.com/manual/tutorials.html?q=clamav&x=0&y=0&per_page=7&matchtype=0 (https://www.linuxliteos.com/manual/tutorials.html?q=clamav&x=0&y=0&per_page=7&matchtype=0)


Its also what I added in a prior post..


Clamd - is probably the daemon - see the link; did you install both? ClamAV and ClamAV-daemon ??


Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get install clamav clamav-daemon
Try that or... just the clamd

Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get install clamav-daemon
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 11, 2020, 05:08:11 PM
Thanks for your reply, Firenice03,
Yes, I've done all of that exactly as you've written. 
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: firenice03 on March 11, 2020, 07:22:31 PM
Thanks for your reply, Firenice03,
Yes, I've done all of that exactly as you've written. 


Whats the output when you try in a terminal ..

Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get install clamav-daemon


**UPDATE**
I reran a
Code: [Select]
sudo freshclam..
I get a similar - Cant find or parse configuration file /etc/clamav/clamd.conf


Ran a 2nd time - no error...


Run sudo freshclam a 2nd time to see if error continues to report.
I checked - it in fact doesn't exist on mine - most all refer to freshclam...


I do appear to update although the error did occur once




*** Update 2 ***
I installed on my LL4.8 lappy.. I had the timeout issue on download - I tried changing timeouts - but eh - Easier to wget the file into the /var/lib/clamav directory... But anywho


Yup similar the 3.8 box Cant find or parse configuration file /etc/clamav/clamd.conf
A 2nd run (sudo freshclam) working fine..  Not sure why you're failing - I installed via the Help Manual line for line... 
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 11, 2020, 11:22:39 PM

Whats the output when you try in a terminal ..

Code: [Select]
sudo apt-get install clamav-daemon


**UPDATE**
I reran a
Code: [Select]
sudo freshclam..
I get a similar - Cant find or parse configuration file /etc/clamav/clamd.conf

When I do the above I get the response that "clamav-daemon is already the newest version."

However, it then lists two packages that were automatically installed but are no longer needed.  These are:

libllvm8 linux-image-unsigned -4.15.0-72 generic
linux modules-4.15.0-72 generic

To remove them, its says use

sudo apt autoremove

I did that and then ran as you said

sudo freshclam

And, voila, it says the data base is up to date.  (Yay!!!)
Time to run the virus scan.  Following the tutorial exactly, I entered
sudo clamscan -r -i / | grep FOUND >> /home/the user name on my computer/virus-scan-report.txt
Next comes a long stream of Warnings! like:
LibClamAV Warnings: fmap_readpage: pread fail: asked for 4077 bytes to offset 19, got 0WARNING: Can't open file /sys/module/drm/ uevent: Permission denied.
There are more sys/module WARNINGS, too numerous to mention, but outcome is; Permission denied. 

I'm just letting this continue it's run, and will see if I get a virus scan report eventually,  but this sure doesn't look good right now.


Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: firenice03 on March 11, 2020, 11:38:14 PM
@Jan
I think its ok... Look at some of those earlier links to the forum..
Where you can exclude... exclude /sys /proc & /dev maybe some thing like...
--exclude-dir=sys

Now the output will only show anything found.. grepping FOUND

You can test on a smaller directory.. say like pics/download or tmp something with some files...

clamscan flags -r recursive =looks in folders -i infected
Also -v verbos on screen

So test by clamscan -vri /home/user/Pictures or what have you..

It'll show scanning each file and a status at end, using grep FOUND doesn't display status (not matched)
But this will give an idea of what's happening
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: Jan on March 12, 2020, 09:23:33 AM
Good morning, firenice03,
I let the scan run its course and this is the message I received:
LibClamAV Warning:  cli_scanxz:decompress file size exceeds limits -only scanning 27262976 bytes
Not sure what to do next.  ClamAV still does not show up in my applications folder. 

To this point, I've installed LL4.8 as a dual boot with my old Windows 7 OS.  I'm thinking maybe the simplest solution would be a total scrub of both OSs just to completely get rid of LL and whatever is going on with it.  (Oh, and I did go back to an earlier Restore point that I'd made with Timeshift.  Still exact same result.) :(   
Title: Re: clamav and freshclam update failures
Post by: firenice03 on March 12, 2020, 04:10:30 PM
@Jan

You won't have an app icon, I believe it is ran via terminal.
You could make a script/icon once you have a working/ happy end result.

Test with a smaller subset/directory, so you can see/feel how it works.

I think your there, I'll look close at the error this eve...